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Spot Banks Before They Go Bust!

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Published in Your Money on 7 October 2008

Do you have savings with HBOS? Kaupthing? Or any other UK based bank? We measure the risk that your bank might go bust.

It’s been a rollercoaster ride in the markets recently. As the credit crisis continues to unfold, everyone’s waiting to see which bank will be the next to fold, where the next bail-out will be and which superhero government, if any will come and save the day.

But how can you tell if your bank is in danger of going bust?

There are many ways to measure how robust a company is, with trading announcements and share prices both good indicators of how a company is faring.

However, there is also one other measure you can use to see how safe a company is. These are called credit default swaps (CDSs).

JP Morgan pioneered the idea of CDSs during the mid 90s. By mid-2007, it had grown into a $45 trillion (£26 trillion) market. But what are they?

CDSs explained

In the simplest terms, a CDS is essentially insurance on debt, and guarantees a holder’s money will be covered in the event that a company goes under.

So, for example, if you owned corporate bonds in a company and were worried that it might go bust, you could buy a CDS from a third party. This quasi-insurance policy would then pay up if the company defaulted on its payments, ensuring you’d get all your money back.

CDS contracts are mainly bought on bonds, corporate debt and mortgage securities. Its cost is priced as a percentage of the debt, and is measured in basis points (one-hundredth of a percentage point). The higher the CDS, the riskier the debt.

And, like insurance, the riskier a bank is perceived to be by the markets, the more expensive it is to insure the debts.

Of course this, like other measures of risk, is not a sure-fire indicator of how likely a bank is going to go bust. The market may think that a bank is about to go bust, but the market could be wrong.

To put it another way, just because you live in an area where burglary rates are high and have to pay higher home insurance premiums, that doesn’t necessarily mean your house will be burgled – in the same way a bank won’t definitely go bust if its CDS price is high.

But overall, I think CDSs do provide a  good barometer for measuring the financial health of a company, because like the stockmarket, CDSs react quickly to what’s going on in the real world.

For example, the price of a five-year CDS in HBOS shot up amid rumours that the bank was in trouble, at one stage rising by 185 basis points in just one day. As Lloyds TSB announced its takeover of the bank in mid-September, CDSs in HBOS immediately came down.

An Icy Warning

So, now you know what CDSs are, here’s a list of the three riskiest banks in Europe in terms of senior five-year debt:

Bank

Country of origin

Bank CDS

Landsbanki

Iceland

3,006.7

Glitnir Bank

Iceland

2,698.3

Kaupthing

Iceland

2,408.9

Source: Bloomberg on the morning of Monday, October 6th

Alarmingly, all three of the riskiest banks in Europe originate from Iceland. CDSs in Landsbanki, which owns UK company Icesave were priced at 3,000 basis points on Monday.

This means that in order to insure, say £10 million worth of debt, investors would have to pay an additional £3 million on top of their existing payments. Now I don’t know about you, but that sounds very expensive, and very risky to me.

So it's not surprising that trading in Landsbanki and Kaupthing shares was suspended yesterday. And today Landsbanki has been nationalised by the Icelandic government.

If you would like to read more about what this means for you and your savings, Ed Bowsher gives a full update of the current situation here.

Domestic doom? Or not all gloom?

So that was the lowdown on the riskiest banks. But what about banks based in the UK? Here’s how risky UK banks are deemed to be, plus a few others that are significant players in the UK market.

Bank

Bank CDS

HBOS

278.0

RBS

273.5

Barclays

234.1

Lloyds TSB

161.7

ING

153.0

Santander

(A&L, Abbey, Bradford & Bingley)

105.6

HSBC

97.2

Source: Bloomberg on the morning of Monday, October 6th

As you can see from the table, HBOS is judged to be the riskiest, with RBS a close second and HSBC viewed as the least risky. In any case, when you look at the numbers above, they are much smaller than those for the Icelandic banks. So the market thinks the risk of bankruptcy is much lower.

Interestingly, both Dutch bank ING and Spanish usurper Santander are deemed safer than four of the big five banks, and may be a safer bet for your cash if you’re looking to move your money.

The Irish banks have also been deemed less risky since the Irish government announced it was backing 100% of all deposits, with CDSs in the Bank of Ireland now at 161.7, after trading at nearly 400 basis points previously.

However, the axiom that you shouldn’t put all your eggs in one basket rings true in this case. HBOS, Britain’s largest mortgage lender, is paying the price during this credit crisis, while HSBC has softened the blow of its sub-prime losses through its diversified assets.

Warning bells

On a separate note, the CDS industry itself could be about to collapse. This is because, unlike the banking sector, the CDS market is unregulated.
This means that contracts can be traded from investor to investor without anyone making sure that the holder has the assets to pay up if the company defaults. What started off as a way to make a quick buck when the economy was booming is quickly becoming a financial quagmire.

Most recently, crippled insurance giant American International Group wrote down a record $11 billion on its CDS holdings, the biggest loss in the company’s history.

With multiple CDS trades taking place, it is increasingly clear that nobody knows who should cough up in the event of a default and, scarily, if the insurer even has enough money to do so.

These concerns have been a major factor behind the financial crisis. And things could get worse. If bond insurance disappears or becomes too costly, lenders will become even more cautious about lending money, with the effects being felt by everyone from big banks to ordinary customers trying to get a mortgage.

Unfortunately, unless you have a Bloomberg terminal sitting in your room, there’s no easy way to find current CDS data. If any canny Fools know where to get this on the internet or otherwise, please share your knowledge in the comment box below.

But for now, I have a feeling there’s a lot more unraveling to be done in the coming months…

More: I Never Thought It Would Get This Bad | Credit Market Carnage

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Comments

The opinions expressed here are those of the individual writers and are not representative of The Motley Fool. If you spot any comments that are unsuitable hit the flag to alert our moderators.

deeplyblue 07 Oct 2008, 5:19pm

Kaupthing say, "We have some of the strongest capital ratios in European bank sector (capital adequacy ratio of 11.2% and Tier 1 ratio of 9.3%) and a good liquidity position and a loan to deposit ratio of around 50%. We've got good asset quality and a highly diversified loan portfolio. In fact, 70% of our business is outside Iceland. Kaupthing has and continues to manage its business prudently ..."

This sounds all very re-assuring (as was obviously the intent), especially since the loan to deposit ratio has been such an issue with the UK banks.

Comments?

NeilJMck 07 Oct 2008, 7:05pm

I have an offset mortgage with Standard life bank, and more than £50,000 offsetting it at the moment (waiting for building work to start). Is there any risk that I could lose the offset part of the account and just be left with the mortgage, should they fall? (And, how risky are they, they don't appear on the table above?)

bu11d0g 07 Oct 2008, 8:14pm

..Err, why are you listing Kaupthing Edge as the number 1 bank account to save in right this minute (in your savings comparison page)?

jt64 07 Oct 2008, 9:43pm

I have an offset mortgage with Standard life bank, and more than £50,000 offsetting it at the moment (waiting for building work to start). Is there any risk that I could lose the offset part of the account and just be left with the mortgage, should they fall?

No. If they were to go bust what you owe would be deducted from what you've on credit. If that leaves a -ive figure (you owe more than you've on offset) you still owe it, if it leaves a +ive figure (you've more on offset than you owe) then so long as it's less than £50k you're protected.

Jon.

peepobaby 07 Oct 2008, 11:46pm

Markit have plenty of data on CDS but its sadly not what we need to know to work out if and how things could unravel. ISDA estimate that the exposure on these products is about $3 trillion, about 4% of the outstanding amount. So that $3,000 billion makes AIG's crippling loss look paltry and it wouldn't surprise me if there are countless institutions facing similar losses and working out how to fix it.

pjpunter7 08 Oct 2008, 7:30am

" bu11d0g
07 Oct 2008, 8:14pm
..Err, why are you listing Kaupthing Edge as the number 1 bank account to save in right this minute (in your savings comparison page)?"

--

Good point, imo.

I get the impression that some of the so-called experts couldn't run a piggy-bank.

EvilRobotTed 08 Oct 2008, 7:51am

Beat me to it, bu11d0g and pjpunter7. I've just opened a Kaupthing account on the very recommendation of this site - thankfully I'm yet to make a deposit.

And whilst it's somewhat reassuring to have up to 50,000 backed by the government, just how long would it take to actually get that money if things go pear-shaped?

Hmmmm...Northern Rock look like a good bet these days...!

shyamprit 08 Oct 2008, 8:13am

Does any one know the situation with ICICI bankS

EMEvans100 08 Oct 2008, 8:22am

It will not have escaped even the casual reader's notice that this site has been ' recommending' Kaupthing as the best place for your savings for some time - and is still top of its league table, regardless of this article.

Ironic that this site may well yet cost its devotees more than it could ever have 'saved' them ...

Any 'Fool' can comment after the event --- a wise man/fool/ site would advise their followers before hand.

I'M OUT ...

pdcovers 08 Oct 2008, 8:38am

Don't put all your eggs into one basket.

sjw123 08 Oct 2008, 8:53am

I, like Shyamprit, would like to know - HOW SAFE IS ICICI BANK - another recommended by TMF....

atseyes 08 Oct 2008, 8:55am

Hey guys, a recommendation is just that, a recomendation, not an instruction. I don't recall anyone saying that you must save with Kaupthing, or any other bank, for that matter, and TMF has, on many occasions, also recommended researching carefully before depositing.
Secondly, this is a very fast-moving situation so, yes, lots of people, even the experts, are going to get caught out from time to time.
Finally, this article just reinforces my feeling that our whole global financial system is based on virtual money being traded for virtual reasons, to make a virtual profit, ie, none of these billions of pounds being lost have ever actually existed at all. The phrase 'house of cards' comes to mind.

sov15ski 08 Oct 2008, 8:56am

I had a narrow escape I think, because I opened an account with Kaupthing edge, with a linked account just as the last Sunday, as I was worried about having more than £50,000 in a single account in ICICI bank. Luckilly I did not send any money to set up the account, but received the welcoming e-mail from Kaupthing.
I find ICICI to be an excellent bank however, and I may have been unduely worried. I have even seen the CDS for ICICI on one of their pages, but until it has been explained in todays fools article the figures did not mean much to me.
I need to have another look, but as someone said on the fool recently, no Indian bank has ever gone bust, and I have heard it said several times that it has been less affected by the credit crunch.
Asian banks however are very worried about European baks and their ability to borrow and trade with each other.
I saw something really dreadful last night on BBC4 news I think it was, which highlighted the plight of a retired solicitor who was wheel chair bound with either cyribal palsy, or motor nueron disease. He was saying that he had invested £150,000 in Icesave and now had to claim back only £50,000 with £14,300 coming from Iceland as part of the British guarantee. He has lost £100,000 so it would seem. I think that this would make me feel suicidal, and my heart goes out to him, with all the other problems that he is currently suffering. I is all well and good to say that he should have not put all his eggs in one basket, but it is so easey to be lured by the relatively good interest rates on offer comparatively speaking
(but all are really crap, and it may be the best of a bad bunch, compared to earlier decades), but lots of ordinaryworking people amongst the 300,000 estimated Icesave savers, will also loose out.
The people that should be loosing out are the ones that caused the problem, like the Nick leasons of this world, that are probably as we speak sunning themselves somewhere in the Caribean, and saying who gives a S***. They have got away with it, and will no doubt do the same again in the future, unless govenments regulate hard. Who will suffer? of course us the ordinary working families, the small fish.
I feel the call for revolution coming on, and so can we round up a few bolshevicks to help?

White5er 08 Oct 2008, 9:19am

I currently have an offset mortgage of £120k with about £80k in the offset account.
About £30k of that is borrowed on 0% credit cards and needs to be paid back over the next year.
If the bank were to fold, presumably they'd use the £80k to reduce the mortgage and I'd only owe them the £40k remaining mortgage, but I couldn't then repay the credit cards.
Food for thought for fellow stoozers.......
Fortunately it's with Abbey, which looks to be fairly safe - at the moment.

boholee 08 Oct 2008, 9:41am

Perhaps we should look at the interest rates offered by a bank as a guideline as to how secure your money might be. If a bank is offering a high interest rate on a particular account, there is obviously more financial risk involved, as in the case perhaps of Kaupthing Edge. It may look like a good deal in way of financial returns on your investment, but in reality, how can they afford to offer a high return unless there was more risk involved.

Knox95 08 Oct 2008, 9:43am

I'm with a number of other commenters on this. It's beyond belief that Icelandic savings products are being recommended right now on the The Fool! I went with Icesave on the basis of Fool comparisons, now risk losing out (although interesting news from our Darling Chancellor this morning, see BBC website). If all this CDS information has been available for years...why has the Fool not been corroborating the products it is holding-up as market leaders? Or at least informing readers, so they can make their own judgment? (Perhaps the Fool is paid for displaying certain products?)

Carlosdjackal 08 Oct 2008, 9:43am

I know that it is difficult not to point the finger in our now blameless society but please talk sense. If the fool or anyone else could predict for sure the next victim of this troubled time wouldnt they be a little more than just a price comparison site. This site is still the best for comparing high street interest rates and deals and for getting other peoples opinions out in these forums. Anyway has anyone here actually lost any money yet? or is this what talking ourselves into recession means.

deecee230 08 Oct 2008, 9:54am

I used the fool site to pick out Kaupthing as a good place to stick my money, it was paying a good rate so they got the nod. I have less than £50K, so is it safe, yes or no?

gartons 08 Oct 2008, 9:54am

I quote from the above article: "What started off as a way to make a quick buck when the economy was booming is quickly becoming a financial quagmire."

Making a quick buck is what the financial sector is all about, unlike the real economy where people actually work for a living.

To quote TMF a lot of people in finance are charlatans.

chicco98 08 Oct 2008, 10:09am

I also nearly signed up with Kaupthing.. narrow escape there!

My view of this whole mess is that there should be some fines issued to those big bosses who run the shop and manage to keep all there billions!! Why should the tax payers of the world have to bail them out?

deecee230 08 Oct 2008, 10:11am

I Should've checked their website first, this is what it says...'Your funds are deposited with Kaupthing Edge, which is a UK bank and regulated by the Financial Services Authority here in the UK. With effect from Tuesday 7 October, your first £50,000 of deposits are protected by the UK Financial Services Compensation Scheme (FSCS) as with any other UK Bank. Your deposits are permanently held here in the UK'. So that's alright then..

tourcontact 08 Oct 2008, 10:30am

Just checked the ICICI site and it has the following information

"Full protection of £50,000 under the Financial Services Compensation Scheme

STRONG CAPITAL ADEQUACY - 17.5% | March 31, 2008 | June 30, 2008"

and

"ICICI Bank UK PLC is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority and is a member of the Financial Services Compensation Scheme established under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. In respect of deposits with ICICI Bank UK PLC, payments under the Scheme are limited to 100% of the first £50,000 of a depositor's total deposits with the bank. Where two depositors hold a joint account, each depositor may receive a maximum of £50,000 compensation in respect of the claim, giving a total of £100,000. Most depositors, including individuals and small firms, are covered."

TMFSUZY 08 Oct 2008, 10:40am

Hey guys,

Just to address anyone who has asked about ICICI...

I took a look on Bloomberg this morning and CDSs are trading at 700+ basis points. When you compare that to the British banks, it may give you serious heart palpitations. But what I will say is prior to this, CDSs were trading at levels under 400 basis points.

The sharp rise is probably due to a recent run on the bank which led to the Indian Reserve Bank having to issue a statement saying ICICI had no liquidity problems. Also simply because people are scared.

We live in a time when banks are being saved as quickly as they go under. Forget brands like Northern Rock and Bradford and Bingley. There's a new bank in town.

The Bank of Darling.

The way things are going I wouldn't be surprised if we're signing cheques with his face printed on in a few years.

Scary indeed.

Hope that helps!

Szu

YiamCross 08 Oct 2008, 11:19am

chicco98- I'm prepared to put money on a witch hunt when things calm down.

These people were taking 20% of what they "earned" their employers. Turns out they haven't really earned them anything. Someone is going to have to take the blame for all this & if they have money that can be used to make a significant dent in the bill for this mess too, well, all the better.

Watch for Branson's space flights becoming over-booked because there's nowhere on this earth these people will be able to hide their loot when the baying pack turns on them.

And all these reassuring quotes about "strong capital adequacy" and "good liquidity". Here's the news, there is no bank that could withstand a run. Even the governments behind some of them would find it difficult to stump up enough cash to meet their promises.

It amazes me that there are still so many people chasing high interest with no risk. The Greed monster, it seems, had taken a hit but is yet to be defeated.

123niv 08 Oct 2008, 11:28am

Is there a way to find out how much money is withdrawn from each banks on a per day basis, I would expect the Bank of England doesnt want that figure to be made available to the public to create more havoc!!

I get a feeling that that institutions and individuals are withdrawing assets including money upfront from their banks accounts and other places fearing a large scale collapse of the entire system. and of course they're moving them to where they think is a safe heaven.

380210084 08 Oct 2008, 11:42am

I am British but live in France.
I still have an account with the Bank of Scotland.
Since it is impossible for me -due to money laundering regulations- to open other bank accounts in the UK to spread the risk I have had to go off shore( Kaupthing, Halifax and Anglo Irish).
What will happen if Kaupthing goes bust? Will I be covered by the UK compensation scheme?
And is the Anglo Irish off shore covered by the Irish Goverment guarantee?
And what about the Halifax off shore?
Does anyone know?

gordonbanks42 08 Oct 2008, 11:48am

White5er: My take on the offset thing is that it's a double-edged sword. If the money you have deposited in the offset exceeds the FSCS limit (whatever that may be at the time) you are not at risk of losing it because if the lender goes bust you will get full credit for it against what you owe on the mortgage. (That is, unless you become a net lender to your mortgage company, when the net surplus you have with them is then at risk only to the extent that is may exceed the FSCS limit).

I do not consider the option of putting more into my offset than I owe on the mortgage because the excess attracts ordinary interest (which is almost certainly less than the mortgage rate and also attracts tax). So better to shop around for somewhere juicier to put any excess in any case.

However, excess or no excess, you had better not count on getting your offset deposits back for the purposes of spending in an emergency, so it's probably better to put your emergency money somewhere else. This is sad because the effective rate of interest on offset deposits is pretty fabby, esp if you're a higher rate taxpayer. My preferred option is NS&I, on grounds of index-linking (I hope my rainy day fund will still be sitting there untouched in 15 years, so inflation is worth considering), tax-efficiency and safety, although you could say that NR or anything else nationalised would be just as safe.

BTW: If B&B's deposit-taking business is owned by Santander, presumably that will not count as nationalised for the purposes of assessing counterparty risk, even though the headlines would have us believe that "B&B is nationalised".

gordonbanks42 08 Oct 2008, 11:55am

Oh - by the way - although what I said just above about the treatment of offset deposits is generally true in law, I believe that the Ts and Cs of a mortgage could override it (seems most don't). If you want to be completely sure, you need to read the contract or ask the lender about your specific situation.

vivo1305 08 Oct 2008, 12:32pm

is there any chance of compensation for lost bradford and bingley shares if so how and when does anybody know please

Ernesto48 08 Oct 2008, 12:45pm

I actually think it's a bit unfair to slate TMF, Moneysupermarket et al for "recommending" some of these products. These are Best Buy tables we are talking about here - they show you who is offering the best rates in town and hardly constitute sound financial advice. Of course I have sympathy for anyone with money caught up in this debacle but anyone who invests over £35k/£50k/£150k (or any other amount) on the basis that the account was top of a Best Buy table should probably have put a bit more thought into it. The reason these Icelandic banks were paying the highest rates was because they were the riskiest banks to put your money with so they had to offer greater incentives. At the end of the day Iceland isn't, and never was, exactly a massive financial centre so maybe alarm bells should have been ringing a bit earlier. Anyway, the FSA guarantee should get you up to the £50k back in 3 to 4 months - and that amount even includes interest that you would have earned (up to the £50k).

Tonalgusgus 08 Oct 2008, 1:00pm

Hi to all,

I would like to pinpoint something on regard the title of this "warning".

"Spot banks BEFORE..."

The first worrying listing of the more troubled banks is made up of three Icelandic banks and the report is from "Source: Bloomberg on the morning of Monday, October 6th"

In various comment, not only in this forum, but also in another Fool.co.uk related to IceSave, there were many people who declaered that they managed to make a withdrawal of money, using a CHAP service (an immidiate effect service) on Saturday the 4th of October and the 5th Sunday.

Promptly, none of them saw back their money in their original bank accounts, as instead IceSave should have done.

I found the warning from Fool.co.uk and Bloomberg too little, too late.

Please, we do need of proper help, unless IceSave blocked its service exactly after the given warning which to me would make them culprit of actually trying to steal money from another Country.

Regards

djabbott 08 Oct 2008, 2:00pm

The Kaupthing Edge website homepage (www.kaupthingedge.co.uk) has some interesting & inherently reassuring messages linked behind the bullets, e.g. "Peace of mind - your savings are held by our UK subsidiary, Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander. We have strong credit ratings from the leading international ratings agencies - Moody's and Fitch"

If all of what is stated on the website is broadly correct, the Icelandic ratings for the Kaupthing parent might not be wholly relevant. It would be interesting for us to be given an impartial definitive view about risks facing UK Kaupthing deposits.

grandpappey 08 Oct 2008, 2:27pm

My occupational pension is administered and paid to me by Prudentoal Pensions Limited via Lloyds TSB.

My very modest savings are in several Nationwide Building Society accounts.

So far,so good.

However :-

I received a letter today from the Department of Work and Pensions informing me that my pension is to be cut by £93.08 per annum due to a wrong entry in their computer in 1995!

billyboy121 08 Oct 2008, 3:46pm

White5er, how are you borrowing £30k on credit cards for 0% without any other charges on those borrowings e.g. charges for drawing down cash on the credit cards? (forgive me if I'm being thick).

Courtalo 08 Oct 2008, 5:35pm

I have a total of £29,000 in Kaupthing Edge. £14,000 is not tied up in fixed bonds. Should I worry and withdraw as they have been taken over by ING.

Olipro 08 Oct 2008, 5:55pm

Having read every post so far, I find the inherent paranoia laughable.

I have an account with Kaupthing Edge and whilst it's still within the £50k mark, I have absolutely no intention of withdrawing it at all. The individuals who read the CDS figures and start panicking it a total joke, please don't swan around like you're a market stability expert when in fact you're just another headless chicken.

In any case, ING have just taken over the entire savings book from KE, am I worried? nope.

For those who simply enjoy whining about nothing, shut up and start shoving £50s under your mattresses.

GilmoreTaransay 08 Oct 2008, 7:28pm

I do not plan on waiting to see what happens. I do not have a lot of money in any bank (compared to some people on this site) but the money I do have with HSBC and Nationwide is important to me and I am not prepared to rely on a bunch of policitians and regulatory bodies to protect my hard earned cash. Its all coming out tomorrow. Yes I lose interest but at least 'under the matress' it is still mine! I guarantee I will not be the last person to do this.

ArtemisFowl 08 Oct 2008, 8:25pm

Offset mortgages
see http://www.fool.co.uk/news/property-home/mortgages/2008/04/11/be-careful-with-offset-mortgages.aspx

Having read all the information, it seems to me no-one is actually sure what will happen, especially if you have net deposits. Even with today's Govt action I have reduced my deposit (in IF) to match the mortgage; probably not necessary but test cases are no fun to be in.

TwoThousand 08 Oct 2008, 9:33pm

What is the situation with offsets if you lose your job? Is the 'savings' consider to be a balance on the mortgage or savings to be taken into consideration as far as benefits?

Reliable100 08 Oct 2008, 10:36pm

What's amazing is that the bankers/traders are still earning these high salaries whilst the market is collapsing. All the guaranteed bonuses will have to be paid out and now they'll be from the tax payers pocket. Its pretty obvious to anyone that even the most intelligent 24-30 year olds shouldn't be earning £400,000+/year. I'm not saying they shouldn't be rewarded but why is 10% of salary not enough? They didn't cure cancer?! Most of them just wrote about share values (wrongly!) and performed pension/hedge fund/Government transactions. Its a boys club where everyone tells each other they deserve more and take each other out to celebrate the creation of "value" that doesn't really exist except in their minds.

Remember to change the salary structure of your banks write to the FSA and your MP as UK PLC are shareholders now and we shouldn't stand for it!

Heaven help the people who retire this year. All their retirement cash is in some 29 year old's bonus cheque and the hedge funds of the mega rich.

Fazzersix 08 Oct 2008, 11:14pm

Taken from my Kaupthing Edge Account Today Wednesday.


ING DIRECT UK HAS SIGNED AN AGREEMENT WITH THE UK TREASURY TO TAKE OVER £2.5 BILLION DEPOSITS FROM KAUPTHING EDGE AND £538 MILLION DEPOSITS FROM HERITABLE BANK


What does this mean for you as a Kaupthing Edge Saver.

Is it true you are taking over Kaupthing Edge and Heritable Bank ?

We are pleased to confirm that we have signed an agreement with the UK Treasury to acquire £2.5 billion in deposits and 160,000 customers from Kaupthing Edge as well as £538 million in savings deposits, held by 22,200 customers from Heritable Bank.

ING Direct is in a position of strength. We are very pleased to have been able to take such rapid and decisive action that has provided Heritable Bank's customers, and those of Kaupthing Edge, with the reassurances they need. We are working to rapidly ensure that it is business as normal for all customers. We look forward to extending our approach of offering simple and straight-forward products backed by award-winning customer service to our new customers.

I am an existing Kaupthing Edge and Heritable Bank customer. What does that mean to my account?

This means that the savings you currently have with Kaupthing Edge and Heritable Bank are safe.

In the short term your accounts will continue to operate in the same way using the same contact details, so you will not see any change. Your accounts will be managed by ING Direct.

As a customer with us you now have the added reassurance that your savings are protected under the Dutch National Bank’s Deposit Guarantee Scheme for up to €100,000 (approx £77,700) per depositor and therefore €200,000 (approx £155,400) for a joint account.

Can I continue to transact on my Kaupthing Edge and/or Heritable Bank account?

Yes – please continue to access your account in the same way using the same contact channels as normal (via phone or web).

Are my savings with you safe and secure?

You have the reassurance that your savings are with ING Direct, we are wholly owned by the Dutch ING Group which announced net profits of £2.8 billion in the first 6 months of 2008. ING is one of the world’s largest financial institutions with assets of over £1 Trillion and 85 million customers. ING Group has one of the highest credit ratings in the financial services industry. AA-credit rated as measured by Standard and Poor’s.

The Dutch economy is one of the strongest with a AAA (triple A) rating which is exactly the same credit rating as the UK.

As a customer with us you now have the added reassurance that your savings are protected under the Dutch National Bank’s Deposit Guarantee Scheme for up to €100,000 (approx £77,700) per depositor and therefore €200,000 (approx £155,400) for a joint account.

I have an account with ING Direct and Kaupthing Edge / Heritable Bank, what compensation cover do I now have?

Your ING Direct savings are protected by the Dutch National Bank’s Deposit Guarantee Scheme which has increased its guarantee to €100,000 (approx £77,700) per person. This covers all the accounts you may hold with ING Direct, Kaupthing Edge and
Heritable Bank.

f6

Bazzafox 08 Oct 2008, 11:38pm

I had the funniest email of the week today. An invitation to a professional lunch from the accountancy bodies to " celebrate the role of the accountancy professin in the success of the City of London"! DEATH , MORE LIKE!

hosierobertson 09 Oct 2008, 8:09am

One outfit that never seems to make an appearance in the current crisis listings is the BRITANNIA BUILDING SOCIETY. I have £40k invested in a "1 Year Fixed Rate Bond" at 6.25% with them.
Having expressed my concern about the present financial environment in their local office yesterday,I was assured that as they were "a mutual" and completely "independant and not attached to any other financial resource" they were at the minute pleased to "stand on the touch line and watch the game" ~ ANY COMMENT ?

CunningCliff 09 Oct 2008, 2:43pm

I would argue that Dutch bank ING is far stronger than any UK bank, so Kaupthing Edge and Heritable Bank savers will be just fine and dandy following ING's bailout of these banks. See:

http://www.fool.co.uk/news/your-money/savings/2008/10/09/big-banks-for-safe-savings.aspx

Cliff (Fool freelancer)

CunningCliff 09 Oct 2008, 2:44pm

"I would argue that Dutch bank ING is far stronger than any UK bank" -- except the Goliath that is HSBC, of course! ;0)

Cliff

flager 29 Oct 2008, 11:23am

As a 14yr customer of HSBC may I issue a word of warning? I have a deposit account with them which I think was paying about 5.5% early this year. I also have a current account which pays a pathetic rate of interest. having received a letter from them about new current accounts, had a meeting with them to discuss. The new current accounts were of no benefit to me, so I asked what the rate was on the deposit 1.8%! with my balance of over £20,000 I asked when this had gone down, answer, this week from 2% Why so low, because money is flowing into the bank as a safe haven. The young man I saw was helpful, suggested I go to Halifax! I will either do that or take up an attractive offer from Tescos.

kenbf 17 Nov 2008, 12:52pm

Can anyone advise me on this?
I shall shortly have a substantial amount of money deposited in my account with Coutts & Co. Although I am very happy with them as they are the only bank I have ever experienced who are 100% efficient in all that they do, but I am a little concerned about their strength bearing in mind the present state of British banks.
They were originally affiliated to the National Provincial Bank which subsequently merged with the Westminster Bank to form the National Westminster Bank (NATWEST. As most of us now know, the Royal Bank of Scotland absorbed Natwest so we now have a situation where Coutts & Co. is now owned by Natwest which is now owned by RBS. A bit like those Russian Dolls!
I understand that Coutts are a stand alone operation and covered by the FSA in their own right but the bottom line for me is how sound are Coutts & Co and if the RBS really did go under or into some sort of Governmental suspended animation, would Coutts be separated?

kenbf 17 Nov 2008, 1:03pm

Britannia Building Society is owned by AXA insurance and therefore does not trade through mortgage brokers but only directly through their branches. I have a feeling that they are somewhat specialist and may well be a safer bet than some of the other building societies but my very limited experience of them is that they are not very efficient. This is probably because they are part of a large insurance outfit who themselves tend to be at sixes and sevens on some occasions.

kenbf 17 Nov 2008, 1:07pm

Britannia Building Society is owned or in some way associated with AXA insurance and therefore does not trade through mortgage brokers but only directly through their branches. I have a feeling that they are somewhat specialist and may well be a safer bet than some of the other building societies but my very limited experience of them is that they are not very efficient. This is probably because they are part of a large insurance outfit who themselves tend to be at sixes and sevens on some occasions.

mikegover 26 Nov 2008, 1:33pm

If you think that the UK Treasury will default, where would you put your money? According to the Guardian today the CDS of the UK sovereign is 90 basis points, up from 30 in May. US and Germany are much lower, but as we know, banks have failed there. Is there such a thing as a genuinely zero risk deposit? I doubt there is, but if you know better.............

mikegover 26 Nov 2008, 1:49pm

According to the 'thisismoney' website Britannia have a Fitch rating of A-, with outlook 'negative'. Not as good as Nationwide or Coventry, but not bad. They do apparently have more than their fair share of subprime mortgages bought from GMAC, though these are said to be currently still profitable. They are in discussion with Coop Financial services about a merger. Prior to October I would not have worried about Britannia, now, I would be inclined to avoid. Always bear in mind that ratings change quickly. In the summer of 2007 Landsbanki was rated AAA ;-(

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