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How Lehman's Collapse Could Affect You

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Debt Is The Cause, And Also The Solution

Published in Your Money on 16 September 2008

You may not own shares in any company – let alone Lehman Brothers – but the financial turmoil could affect you nonetheless. Here’s how.

The news is full of stories about the collapse of Lehman Brothers, but does the bankruptcy of an American investment bank really affect you? 

Sadly, the answer is almost certainly yes. Here’s a look at some of the ways you may be affected.

The economy

Unlucky employees of Lehman Brothers have already lost their jobs. Confidence in the City has been seriously damaged, so more job losses in the financial sector are inevitable. The newly unemployed will have less money to spend and that will affect businesses across the UK.

As I wrote yesterday, the scariest economic danger is deflation. In other words, prices in the shops could start falling. This sounds like a good thing, but it's not. Deflation normally leads to lower company profits, increased unemployment and rising debt levels.

I’m not saying that this is a likely scenario, but it’s possible. 

Central bankers are aware of this risk and will probably cut interest rates over the next few weeks. That should boost the economy and is good news for borrowers. But it's bad news for savers.

And the trouble is, the bankers could go too far and end up boosting inflation. So the likes of Mervyn King -- the Bank of England’s governor -- face some very tough decisions.

Mortgages

We had seen some signs of recovery in the mortgage market in recent weeks. However, the Lehman collapse may mean that the ‘mortgage famine’ becomes as bad as it was a couple of months ago. That’s because lenders may find it harder to raise the cash to lend to homebuyers.

On the other hand, if the Bank of England does cut its base rate, homeowners on variable rate mortgages - such as discounts and trackers - should see their mortgage rates reduced.

I also think house prices will carry on falling. This is because the mortgage market will stay slow, unemployment will be rising, and consumer confidence will be damaged. Many people will be reluctant to buy property when there’s so much uncertainty.

Savings

If the base rate is cut by, say, 0.25%, savings rates on many accounts will fall by the same amount. That said, some banks may not cut the rates on their accounts. That’s because they desperately need to raise cash to lend out, and money from ordinary savers is the best route open to them.

If you’re a saver, your best bet may be to go for a fixed rate bond now, so you can lock in a high savings rate for the next year.

Pensions

If you have a salary-related pension, you probably won't be affected. That’s because the size of your pension is linked to your salary, not the health of the stock market. Of course, the pension fund that will pay your pension may have been damaged by the recent crisis. But your employer is obliged to top up your fund if that's the case - assuming it has the cash.

If you have a money-purchase pension, then the risk is higher. Your employer -- and possibly you as well -- has paid money into a fund which has then been invested in the stock market and other assets. That fund is then used to buy an annuity when you retire.

Luckily, I’m 40 years old, so I can be relaxed on this issue. I’m confident that the stock market will have recovered by the time I reach 60. All that matters to me is the size of my pension fund when I retire, not what it’s worth now.

However, if I was 55 or older, I would be more concerned. I’d want to know what percentage of my fund is invested in shares, and how much in less risky assets. Hopefully a decent chunk of the fund has already been put into bonds.

If you’re worried, it may be worth seeing an independent financial adviser. He/she can advise you on your circumstances and see if there’s anything you can do to improve things.

Will my bank go bust?

Probably not. Even if one of the UK banks was in deep, deep trouble, I don't think the UK government could afford to let one of the 'Big Five' go to the wall. But these are extraordinary times, so it's impossible to say for sure that everything will be fine. 

If you're worried, make sure that you don't have more than £35,000 saved with one banking group. That's because the Financial Services Compensation Scheme will pay up to £35,000 if your bank goes bust.

And finally….

We live in uncertain times. Nothing like this has happened since the 1930s. This article gives my best estimate on how you may be affected. But, in truth, no one knows for sure. So my final piece of advice is: try and be as careful as you can with your cash... and expect the unexpected!

More: Five Ways To Beat The Credit Crunch | Letting Lehman Collapse Was Right Move

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Comments

The opinions expressed here are those of the individual writers and are not representative of The Motley Fool. If you spot any comments that are unsuitable hit the flag to alert our moderators.

churchill123 16 Sep 2008, 6:22pm

You only have to look at what's been happening in the markets this week to appreciate how this affects everybody.

retainedprofits 16 Sep 2008, 11:24pm

"Luckily, I’m 40 years old, so I can be relaxed on this issue. I’m confident that the stock market will have recovered by the time I reach 60"

Or, we could be at the bottom of the next cycle.

plumbdude 17 Sep 2008, 8:06am

I recently watched a program on the 1929 stock market crash and the similarity’s are frightening
I think we should all be worried and watch your cash

marktheharp 17 Sep 2008, 8:10am

I have some cash in ING direct. This is based in Holland, so is this covered by the govt's £35000 compensation scheme? And is it better just to have your money in cash, hidden under the proverbial mattress??

Gardener123 17 Sep 2008, 8:25am

To marktheharp: This article, link http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/savings/safe-savings?gclid=CI7Y_Meh4pUCFROI1QodjWxzeg
gives some good info on how compensation schemes work for various financial institutions, including ING. I also have money with them and ICICI. Can't help feeling nervous about what will happen if savers start panicking.

5753225 17 Sep 2008, 8:26am

Marktheharp,

The Netherlands will have its own bank compensation scheme, you will have to enquire what that may be. But if the money is in £ it is likely that it is guarranteed under the UK scheme.

Plumbdude,

Why are you asking everyone to watch my cash?

sadsaver 17 Sep 2008, 8:27am

"If you're worried, make sure that you don't have more than £35,000 saved with one banking group"
My elderly Mum has recently invested money within a high Interest Deposit Bond with HSBC. Would it be safer to split her £50K invested, into two separate bonds or leave it as it is now? Any advice please?

meanmachine1 17 Sep 2008, 8:45am

You have to be careful and check who owns what. Some Banks actually own other banks or Building Societies. ie Lloyds Bank owns Scottish Widows Bank. So therefore under the goverments £35,000 compensation scheme, you might think that you have safely spread your money out and then find that if one went crash, all your money is in technically under one ownership.

SiGl26 17 Sep 2008, 9:22am

A thought: with the inevitable banking sector consolidation, do you get a period of 'double protection' if you have £35k in each of two newly merged banks?

colin106 17 Sep 2008, 9:29am

Sadsaver - only £35,000 of your Mother's bond would be covered in the event of HSBC going belly up. If you redeem it early there may be a small penalty - the penalty is £100 with the Bond I have with HSBC - but it would probably be prudent to redeem the Bond, buy another with HSBC for £35,000 and put the balance of £15,000 with another organisation such as ING or Kaupthing Edge where you will get 6%+ Both investments will then be covered by the government.

Crips1 17 Sep 2008, 9:40am

To: MarktheHarp.

On the question of your money being protected under the Government compensation scheme, provided your bank are regulated by the FSA it will be. I am also with ING and you will be pleased to know that they are FSA regulated.

tired102 17 Sep 2008, 9:41am

and while all this is happening the people who have caused this problem are still stuffing their millions into their back pockets. Rip-Off Britain rules OK?

Michelle129 17 Sep 2008, 9:49am

Can anyone advise on on how the government guarantee of up to £35,000 on savings will work if I have an offset mortgage account? Currently I have linked current, savings and mortgage accounts. I can put my savings in my current/savings accounts and the mortgage interest is offset against interest I would have earned on my money. Or I can pay it into my mortgage account, and reduce my mortgage, and that also reduces my mortgage interest. From my point of view, which account i put the money in is purely cosmetic, because the net effect on mortgage interest is the same and I never "pay off" any of my mortgage permanently - I can always draw back all I have paid into the mortgage account at any time.

So my question is: will only the money I have in my savings account be considered "savings" if the bank goes bust (and therefore be covered by the guarantee) or would all the money I have put into mortgage account be considered my savings (on the basis it is my money, to draw back any time I like, and not money permanently paid off my mortgage) - if it's the latter, I have too much money to be covered by the guarantee, so could lose it! If it's the former, I'd be better off paying more of my savings into the mortgage account, to make sure my total "savings" are less than £35k.

Any thoughts?

ojibwei 17 Sep 2008, 10:01am

Hi, can anyone tell me why several poorly run financial institutions have gone down but the biggest and worst is riding high? Im talking about the EU/euro, as we say here it is as bent as a 9 bob note but shows no sign of falling?????

lindachantal 17 Sep 2008, 10:20am

Hello. I'd be grateful if anyone could help me with the following ... I have substantially more than £35K in a Sainsbury's internet savings account. Is it okay to leave that amount in there or should I be as cautious as though it were in a high street bank account? And is Sainsbury's bank regulated by FSA?

hzplj9 17 Sep 2008, 10:44am

I'm 60 in 6 weeks time and was planning a retirement from the sale of my house and my pension funds, but I've seen my assets diminish over 20%. If the UK was in the Euro zone we may have been able to ride the storm but the big boys in London and New York didn't like the idea.
I voted yes to join by the way. I have a holiday home in France which is about the only thing that's gone up in value and not down. Any expatriates are going to feel the pinch as pensions are paid in sterling and converted to Euros which means they are losing out yet again. I'm leaving this country as I'm fed up with rip-off Britain. So this is just another nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned. No pun intended. I want a nice and easy retirement. I think I've earned it after working for 40 years. When the youngsters of today reach my age they'll still have at least another 10 years to work, which is not a thing I would look forward to. Make sure your pension pot is safe and BIG.

plakapong 17 Sep 2008, 11:02am

Hello, can anyone advise me as I have more than 35k in savings with LloydsTSB and also investments with Scottish Widows and a pension also. Would the 35k upper ceiling of protection only cover my cash savings or my total savings and investments? Either way I'm going to have to spread the risk and would welcome any advice.
Thanks

nqsenile 17 Sep 2008, 11:27am

Who owns what ?
Please could The Fool write an article showing which banks /building societies are "one organisation" for the purposes of the UK government's financial compensation scheme. It could be a permanent item / link.

fenemore 17 Sep 2008, 11:34am

Re:ojibwei - the strength of the Euro is down to nothing more than faith. Germany is likely to trigger a fall - it manufactures high-end quality products, always the first to suffer from a recession. Following Lehmans collapse, those city high-flyers will be trading down their BMW's and Merc's for Ford Fiesta's.

So once that faith turns to fiscal atheism - and it will soon - the Euro will start to fall against the US Dollar and the Pound. Don't trade in your unused holiday money just yet.

soulsaver1 17 Sep 2008, 11:41am

lindachantal: Intersting: I believe Sainsbury's account is operated by the Bradford & Bingley & covered by their (B&B)FSA registration & £35k compensation scheme; so if B&B go bust you get upto £35k. May would be prudent to put any balance over that elsewhere but NOT in B&B as you'd still only get £35 between your total Sains & B&B. And if you've got additional funds in B&B as well you'll need to do summat about them too, to mitigate exposure. I don't believe Sainsburys trading position figures at all in the equation. Best

AndrewTexas 17 Sep 2008, 11:46am

Michelle129: Looks like you are OK. See http://www.fool.co.uk/news/property-home/mortgages/2008/04/11/be-careful-with-offset-mortgages.aspx

They take the sum total of your savings & borrowings with the same institution.

TMFLaura 17 Sep 2008, 11:47am

Hi Fools - there is an existing article detailing which financial institutions are connected/co-owned. It's called 'Why Your Savings Might Be Unsafe'.

mamgu 17 Sep 2008, 11:52am

I am very tempted to remove my savings and put them in the safe at home, especially when I read that Barclays have bought part of Lehman Bros.

LastChip 17 Sep 2008, 11:55am

There are several questions here about having more than £35,000 in one institution. The short answer is; DON'T.

£35,000 is the MAXIMUM deposit guaranteed under the compensation scheme for any one institution. Therefore, if your institution were to go bust, the maximum you would receive is £35,000.

Further, as has been mentioned on different occasions, that £35k, is ONLY guaranteed PER INSTITUTION. This muddies the waters a little, as it is up to you to find out who is linked to who. Or more specifically, who operates under who's licence.

The FSA site is one source of information, where you may be able to find out who the "parent" company is. But frankly, they don't make it very easy and the FSA has a lot to answer for.

soulsaver1 17 Sep 2008, 11:59am

It's not as 'simple' as 'ownership' of banks re the Financial Services Compensation Scheme (FSCS)- it's to do with the registrations. So some Banks own other banks and are all covered by one registration so a total of £35k compensation. Like Halifax, Birmingham Midshires and HBOS are all one registration so if hbos gos t*ts up and you had £105k spread around them 3, you'd only get £35K back. But for example if you had money with Icesave and Heritable bank (both owned by Landsbanki)& Landsb rolled over youd get £35k for each because they are seperately registered with the FSA in uk. Now before someone else chips in that example brings in another complication 'cos the Icesave is on the passport scheme which I beleive means the first £20k (or maybe 20k Euros)has to be claimed from the Icelandic compensation scheme & the balance upto £35k subsequently from the UK FSCS. But the Heritable is purely from the UK! So... do your homework when or before you open the accounts! And yes MFool if you've not covered the issue and listed the registrations you should... and if you have, a sticky with a link would be good.

billyboy121 17 Sep 2008, 12:06pm

Michelle 129, I have exactly the same issue. Under the law of offset, arguably your savings would be offset against the mortgage loan provided that the mortgage and the savings are held with the same legal entity. I'm going to check this point with my bank and the FSA and suggest you do the same though for peace of mind.

uncthebunc 17 Sep 2008, 12:30pm

I am administering an estate worth considerably more than £35k. Does anyone know if there is any special protection for executors' accounts?

MortgageForceKat 17 Sep 2008, 12:39pm

Michelle129, I get asked the offset question all the time and the good news is, under the Insolvency Act Rules for Banks, any deposits (full amount) would have to be offset against any debt. So yes, they wouldn't just use the first £35,000. The FSCS who provides the compensation schemes, has confirmed this for me.
ps: also worth noting that the £35k rule on normal savings is per person, so if you have a joint account the threshold is £70k. possibly worth adding partners.

debtwagon 17 Sep 2008, 3:00pm

"Following Lehmans collapse, those city high-flyers will be trading down their BMW's and Merc's for Ford Fiesta's."

Really? I doubt it. More likely the slimeballs have been talking down HBOS shares and buying 'em up cheap.

carlll 17 Sep 2008, 4:02pm

Why do some journalists insist on giving worthless and dangerous advice? Clearly, this guy does not know what he is talking about. In the greater scheme of things, Lehmans collapse will have little measurable effect on the economy. The fact is ANY financial hiccup will effect us because sentiment is running at an all time low. And nobody knows what is going on... or who will hit the wall next. What can be said with accuracy it is hard to see how we can avoid a massive correction in house values to normal values.
And the credit squeeze will only draw the process out. The economy will slow down. How much? Heck! We will only know when we pass it. But this writer advises readers to speak with their financial adviser? Is he having a laugh? What good advice does a IFA offer even when things are going well? So what good are they now? Ninety nine percent of financial advisers do not have a grasp on economics. And to make sense of what is happening now, you really need to understand economics. What you have seen in the last twelve months is the FED, the BOE and other Western governments support a market that is grossly undervalued and nothing more than a Ponzi scheme. It matters how much they try, they cannot halt the inevitable. Had the UK had a decent account balance, reasonable personal debt levels, and property prices based upon historically accepted price/earning values, then what is happening in the US would not bother us. Realise this: pensions, savings and investments in the UK will tank!!!!! Earnings from companies will be low - depressing returns from pensions funds and any investment product offered by institutional investors etc. The worst place you can invest right now is the UK. And the dumbest thing you can also do is hold cash which is maliciously being eroded by inflation everyday.
Strangely enough, Mr Smarty Pants writer here, fails to advise you that there are markets in other parts of the world, shielded from the carnage unfolding right now. Simply because their economic fundamentals are strong, fiscal policies were conservative and based upon common sense and their banking systems were better regulated and not so heavily leveraged in the wholesale markets. This means, assets in these countries will continue to rise nicely and sustainably. Slovakia comes to mind immediately. We are all smart enough I hope, to realize we should not rely on the fortunes of this country. Or listen to journalists who write articles on subjects of which they no nothing about. But... hey!!!! What sells better than bad news eh? And journalists love to pose as authorities. The reality is, this is not as bad as people will have you believe. And the sooner the excesses are washed out of the system, the sooner we will recover. In the meantime, get your money out of the UK into markets where it will grow and be protected from the ravages of inflation and currency depreciation. Oh, and stop listening to journalists. If they were so bright, then they should have listened to the experts is 2001 who warned back then that asset prices were in danger of becoming over valued. But this journalist or whatever he is, certainly didn't listen or he would be writing about it now. Rely on yourself. Not fools pretending to be experts. And on a last note: we will be through this by 2011. And the next asset boom will start its ascendency in 2019

grrrrdarling 17 Sep 2008, 4:15pm

Hi my gran has savings etc with hsbc should she arrange to have talks with her bank manager to see if any of her assets are in distress or at risk? i'm not financially savvy or secure myself but have nothing to worry about as have no savings etc as of yet. advice please. thank you

venus29 17 Sep 2008, 7:45pm

Hi, well this crash has been a long time in coming and it is all about greed greed greed and there is more to follow. I don't think this will be confined to banks and air craft. For too long the middle rate of tax payers have been milked to give the big fat cats loads of cream and I think the cow is just about empty. When companies talk of their profits being so many Billions down on last year they are not talking about an actual loss but only saying we didnt make as many billion profit as last time. These profits don't go to give the middle earners a decent wage no they go to keep the ever open hand of the share holder happy and the boss out playing golf while his secretary runs the company. Crash Crash Crash and hopefully we will all get back to the real world living within our means.

MikeGG1 17 Sep 2008, 8:57pm

All these uncertainties demonstrate that anyone within 10 years of retirement should use the 'lifestyle' option on a money purchase pension scheme. In other words gradually convert shares into a 75/25 mix of gilts/cash to avoid any last minute hiccups.

gordonbanks42 17 Sep 2008, 10:21pm

"If you have a salary-related pension, you probably won't be affected. That’s because the size of your pension is linked to your salary, not the health of the stock market."
I am worried by this, and similar comments I have read in the press over the last few days. Admittedly, there is a caveat about employers having the cash but this is an understatement. The fact is that a defined benefit scheme relies on the future financial wellbeing of the employer for its funding. To put it crudely - no profits, no funding. In what way is having a pension that is dependent on the long term future good fortunes of one company safer than having one that depends on the average of the long-term future good fortunes of 350 or more? There are many people out there whose pensions have lost (say) 6-8% of their value this week. There are others whose pensions will lose 100% of their value as a result of events of this week but they just don't realise it yet. When they come to open the box they will find a dead cat nonetheless. Beam me up, Scotty... (the only exception I acknowledge is of course HMG, which is not a company anyway and however parlous its finances may be it will not go bust)

Barrydrake 17 Sep 2008, 11:06pm

This thing to do with 35k in an account. How can anyone go through the process of buying a property? It's ridiculous. How can business recover? Every house in the UK would have to be worth less than that. I think it could even be a problem if buying a house in Bulgaria. I think we should stop talking ourselves down. All I have seen in the recent years under Blair(where is he by the way )and now Brown is arsehole loanmakers throwing money at people who were never going to repay it. Irresponsible lenders.Estate agents were quick to capitalise on this easy cashflow. It was your hard earned savings by the way. Perhaps the current generation are just learning the meaning of thrift as people like myself born just after WW2 learnt from our parents

DARCEY52 18 Sep 2008, 2:59pm

To Michelle and all the others who commented on the offet mortgage question, I'm a bit confused....surely if you have 50k 'savings' in a bank with which you also have a 150k mortgage say, then the net result is you owe the bank 100k. So if the bank goes under you don't actually have 50k savings to lose surely? You still have your property don't you? The question I have is what happens to the mortgage when a bank goes bust. Do the liquidators try to collect the full amount outstanding? Or will the debt be taken on by a 3rd party? Either way surely they can't hold a claim over you for 150k if they have taken the 50k savings...or can they??!

nice1son 18 Sep 2008, 5:18pm

To DARCEY52. I was listening to Radio 2 Yesterday and Jeremy Vine was talking to a Financial Guru. A question like yours was asked and the answer he came back was the liquidators would not be able to take your house from you and you'll have no mortgate or debt to pay back...hmmmmm. This is something that needs looking into.

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