Tinker Tailor

Published in Investing on 27 September 2012

Stephen Bland on the subject of tinkering.

My article on HYP capital, specifically the lack of it mattering, last week attracted a good deal of controversy on the HYP board, as indeed I intended it do because, although I don't follow the board much these days, whenever I do look at it I find that it has been hegemonised by those seeking capital gains, tailoring the approach to their own ends and giving the mistaken impression to newcomers that tinkering is part of the original idea.

People can do what they want with their own money, of course, but as far as my strategy is concerned they can't, because if they do then they aren't following it. And if they aren't following it, it's something else and not an HYP. I'm not saying such variations have no merit -- great if they work for you, but once you have endorsed a major variation like making gains part of your aim and taking steps to achieve it by trading, then it has ceased to be an HYP as I define it.

Some may ask what entitles me to define it and lay down the rules? Simple, I invented HYPs so I define what they are. You don't like it, that's okay, but then give your version another title so as not to confuse people. And by the way, I don't claim to have invented the basic concept of HY share investing -- it is a very old strategy, much older than even I am, and that's saying something. What I claim to have devised is the structured version I call HYP aimed at the hands-off investor with its particular rules, of which the most fundamental and unwavering is diversification.

I said last week that probably the oldest HYP argument on the Fool is whether capital matters -- well, that and tinkering. Having made myself clear on the former, in this article I'm going to make myself clear on the latter and then I'll shut up about HYPs for some time.

Whether capital matters and today's subject of tinkering are closely related, because an investor who targets capital gains as an essential element of the HY approach has only one way to try and influence this. That is by tinkering, which means voluntary trading in HYP speak.

So why should I be against tinkering for most HYPers? It may be easier to understand this if I put aside temporarily my position that capital doesn't matter in order to play devil's advocate for this purpose. Then, even if I feign the view that capital does matter, I have found that capital will do better for most investors long term by doing nothing than by attempting to increase it by tinkering.

I have termed this idea "market trading". What I mean by this is that the market will, on balance and over time, trade at much better terms for you via corporate action like bids, spin-offs, reorganisations and so on, than you can do for yourself.

The great majority of small investors famously make poor trading decisions. I have confirmed this by seeing the efforts of a lot of small investors over the years, plus brokers and others in the business have confirmed it. The most common fault of those who consider themselves long-term investors, but who are nevertheless willing to trade on occasion, is over trading and selling too soon.

And this applies to HYPers in particular as well as to other long-term investors in general. There is no reason to suppose that the typical HYPer is any more savvy about trading than other small investors.

The trouble is that HYPing, and small investing generally, is flooded with people who think they have the skill to trade, against the weight of evidence that they almost certainly don't. It's largely a macho thing, confined very largely to the male ego because successful trading is one modern substitute for more ancient ways of trying to prove you are a real man. Most women don't feel they have to prove anything and make far better long-term investors, being willing to leave well alone.

What makes investors sell too soon? A modest capital gain and in the other direction, panicking over a capital loss possibly induced by some business problem which appears major at that point but turns out to be ephemeral with hindsight.

By taking that modest gain, you are more likely than not to be giving up a far larger gain that may occur over time. And by taking that loss, you are missing out on the recovery that may occur over time. Not in every case, I know that we can all give examples where selling turned out to be the correct move. But this a question of the optimum overall strategy, of where the most advantage lies, in cognisance of the fact that too many small investors don't know when a sale is the right move or not, they just think they do. I'm saying that the optimum position is that doing nothing will be a lot more profitable on balance in time than doing something.

It's worth looking at the reasons for this, at why I believe market trading beats tinkering. It's because the market, though not wholly efficient, is not wholly inefficient, either. Especially when it comes to the big caps that are used for HYP construction, because those shares are closely watched and have a lot of vested interests.

Thus for example, over the years, it is fairly likely that a number of shares in an HYP may be taken over. HYP1 had several bids in its early days. This will in nearly every case realise a much larger gain than the investor could have done by trading it earlier, even taking the holding time into account. But note that you never know which ones may be taken out and it can be those where you least expect it.

My point is that generally, inefficient big-cap companies will be dealt with one way or another in the long run to the HYPer's benefit. Not every one but that is the trend. Other methods include spinning off new shares or reorganisations involving replacing the management and so on. And it's not only inefficient companies that are taken out by bids. Many others are too just because the bidder wants the business. A lot of such bids involve the bidder overpaying and don't work out, but who cares? If you score a fat gain on an HYP share this way then market trading has worked for you.

And in the light of all this I have often referred to HYPs as being for eternity as a minimum. Do nothing, forever. Except to deal with mandatory changes when they occur. Nothing that has occurred over the years, not even the major slump in share prices and dividends that occurred in the last few years when the credit crunch hit has changed my mind. If anything, it has reinforced my view that tinkering does not pay and that too many HYPers will get it wrong if they attempt it.

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Comments

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MunroMan 27 Sep 2012 , 1:43pm

It would be interesting to see what the portfolio turnover ratios of tinkered HYPs are relative to non-tinkered.

Even with the normal amount of takeovers it will be hard to get below about 3%.

AleisterCrowley 27 Sep 2012 , 2:44pm

It's worth selling occasionally surely, when shares become 'ridiculously' overvalued (eg tech shares in 2000) - then one can put the capital to better use.

F958B 27 Sep 2012 , 3:26pm

I run a kind-of-mutated, tinkered HYP.

I've turned over about 15% of my portfolio so far during 2012 and probably will have turned over 20% by the end of this year.

Last year and in 2010 I probably turned over about 20% of my portfolio in each year.

If we weren't in such exceptional, volatile times - times of risk and opportunity - I'd expect my turnover to be lower; probably closer to 10%.

koochak 27 Sep 2012 , 3:35pm

Aleister,
If I'm understanding Stephen correctly, his view is that most investors won't know when a share is 'ridiculously' overvalued.
Anyway, would tech shares in 2000 have qualified to be part of HYP in the first place?

F958B 27 Sep 2012 , 3:39pm

Oh - my mutated HYP has a total portfolio forward expected yield of 3.9% and historic yield around 3.7%.
Stripping-out the precious metals and other non-equity investments, the forward expected yield is 4.9% and historic yield around 4.6%.

The FTSE median historic yield is around 3.4%, for comparison.
So it's a HYP, but not as we know it.

AleisterCrowley 27 Sep 2012 , 3:40pm

Possibly BT? It didn't reach the ridiculous heights of some of the new technology stuff but it hit £15 -- wish I'd sold out then !!

F958B 27 Sep 2012 , 3:56pm

koochack

I use what I jokingly refer to as my "theory of relativity".

The short version is:
Can I get a noticeably higher yield, growing at a similar rate, and which is likely to be just as dependable?

Let's take Diageo and GlaxoSmithKline as a comparison.
Both have reliable long-term dividend records.

GSK's payout has increased to 70p per share from 48p per share five years ago (+8% p.a./5yrs) and from 39p a decade ago (+6% p.a./10yrs).
The historic yield is 5%, having grown at 6% p.a. over the last ten years with no cuts in the payout.

DGE's payout has increased to 43.5p per share from 36.5p per share five years ago (+4% p.a./5yrs) and from 23.8p a decade ago (+6% p.a./10yrs).
The historic yield is 2.5%, having grown at 6% p.a. over the last ten years with no cuts in the payout.

So I can buy GSK yielding twice as much as DGE, and with similar past track records of dividend increases. Why should I accept the lower yield of DGE unless I'm a speculator hoping to sell the already-overpriced shares of DGE to a bigger fool (small F) at an even higher price.







Luniversal 27 Sep 2012 , 4:08pm

The psychological problem is about men (yes, it is almost always men) who have enough determination, nerve and willingness to learn to to walk away from Wise scams and do it for themselves. Admirable in itself, if sometimes leading to a cheap knee-jerk contrarianism which can hurt you even more than gullibility.

Trouble is, by virtue of these very traits men are also likely to be unfitted by temperament for the discipline of doing nothing which Stephen's system asks of them.

If they think they can invest their own savings and play the markets better than highly paid pros, why would they stop dabbling, meddling, fiddling and tinkering once the die is cast and the High Yield Portfolio bought?

They should let it be... but all too often they can't. 'Masterly inactivity' is too frustrating. 'Don't just do something, stand there' makes them gnash their teeth with frustration. Then the itchy fingers lead them to monkey about. Net effect, worse than doing nothing-- but they score the odd win, and they think they are cracking the secret of dodging in and out of shares which will let them 'perform' better in future.

They get a buzz out of it, but if they are single-minded about pinning down a rising income for ever more, they would do better to divert speculative urges into, say, a separate small portfolio of fun money: half a dozen punts at a time (shares, options, CFDs, whatever) whose total loss would not harm their finances too much.

Unfortunately, being unwilling or unable to afford such a safety valve, some 'complexifiers' come to the HYP Practical board with wheezes for pepping up performance-- either trolling or naively failing to understand that we old hands have heard it all before, and been burnt by trying it.

(I would not, for instance, have thought anyone left alive still believed you could get an edge by trading round ex-div dates, but every few months some newly-fledged Fool reinvents that cracked old wheel.)

The inability of investors systematically to beat markets after costs is one of the oldest and most irrefutable findings about their behaviour. No different from betting on horses or dogs, really, except the results are known less fast. But people won't be told that they are on a hiding to nothing. They have never stopped avoiding walking under ladders either.

koochak 27 Sep 2012 , 4:16pm

F958B
You are considering 'yield', which is fine (in keeping with HYP definition). Allow me to formulate a 'general' theory of relativity:
If you believe you can get a better 'total return' by holding a different share, sell existing holding and buy the new share.

However, Stephen's view is that most investors are not able to do that assessment reliably. e.g. in your example, you are extrapolating the past to form a view of the future return.

P.S. I am not agreeing with Stephen - I'm being devil's advocate.

Arborbridge 27 Sep 2012 , 4:21pm

I do find it intuitively odd that we can be trusted to choose shares for a HYP and try hard to build in balance and diversity, but then can never touch them for eternity. Thereafter balance and diversity, which are so important, must take second place to our apparent subsequent inability to choose shares. In time, if one sector or share dominates, we must ignore it. The principle is, of course, that in time the portfolio will correct itself, but there is no guarantee this will happen within a very long time, during in which your risk is increased due to the imbalance you were trying to avoid in the first place.
However, I do agree, touching HYP shares as little as possible is desirable, though there will come a time when imbalances indicate that adjustments are advisable.

Arb.

AleisterCrowley 27 Sep 2012 , 4:33pm

So - if a share doubles in price and the yield drops to, say, 2%-- just hang on ?
I'd rather take the profit and move the capital to a share that pays 4%+

Frequent trading is a no-no, and almost guarantees losses but I'm happy to occasionally tinker to get the most benefit from capital .

koochak 27 Sep 2012 , 4:56pm

Here's an argument that to my mind highlights the hold-for-ever flaw in HYP:

Say I formed my HYP one year ago. Today I want to invest all the dividends I have received.
Would I:
1. Invest in shares I already hold, i.e. those that qualified for HYP one year ago.
2. Invest in shares that qualify for HYP now.

1 is intuitively wrong. This is new money. If HYP works it should be invested in shares that HYP suggests today not sometime in the past.
If 2 then why does it matter what the source of the money that I am investing is: it could be from selling the shares I already hold.

ProfessorMarcus 27 Sep 2012 , 5:03pm

I'm still not convinced that it's safe to buy 15-20 shares and then never 'tinker' with them.

From this article in 2008 Stephen suggests a 16 share portfolio:

http://www.moneyweek.com/investment-advice/how-to-invest/the-lazy-investors-guide-to-making-money

Lloyds TSB (LLOY) - 427p, 8.3% yield
Persimmon (PSN) - 749p, 7.0%
Rentokil (RTO) - 109p, 6.7%
BT Group (BT.A) - 276p, 5.6%
Marks & Spencer (MKS) - 399p, 5.5%
William Hill (WMH) - 410p, 5.5%
Aviva (AV.) - 644p, 5.1%
Pearson (PSON) - 665p, 4.7%
Rexam (REX) - 409p, 4.6%
Land Securities (LAND) - 1,517p, 4.2%
Compass (CPG) - 302p, 3.9%
National Grid (NG.) - 850p, 3.8%
GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) - 1,343p, 3.8%
Carnival (CCL) - 1,975p, 3.7%
BP (BP.) - 586p, 3.5%
Diageo (DGE) - 1,026p, 3.3%

The obvious dividend cutters have been BP. and Lloyds, I also think that BT.A, PSN, RTO and WMH may have had problems.

I haven't time to calculate the effect on income but without the necessary safety margins this could have had serious repercussions for a retiree.

ProfessorMarcus 27 Sep 2012 , 5:23pm

Re: my post from 17:03.

From company websites:

BP. = no divi for Q1-Q3 in 2010.
LLOY = no divi from final in 2008.
BT-A = cut after 2007/8 final.
WMH = no final divi in 2008 and 2009.

From Morningstar:

PSN = 0 divi in 2009, dps of 3p in 2010, 8.5 in 2011.

RTO = 0 divi from 2009 to 2011.

F958B 27 Sep 2012 , 5:35pm

koochak said:

".....e.g. in your example, you are extrapolating the past to form a view of the future return......"

It could also be argued that in my DGE vs GSK example, an investor could take a stance of "strategic ignorance" as to which of DGE or GSK will increase their dividend the most in the future.

HYP likes strategic ignorance.

Wuffle 27 Sep 2012 , 5:39pm

All,
Theoretically I can see the point, but by the time a person has got, say, 2/3 through life they will have made innumerable wealth/income altering decisions (career & partner being the big ones). The notion of their wealth/income on their last day on earth resting on no further decisions seems a bit irrelevant.
Fun intellectual exercise is all this is - the shell left the howitzer long ago.

Wuffle.

Gengulphus 27 Sep 2012 , 7:35pm

ProfessorMarcus,

From this article in 2008 Stephen suggests a 16 share portfolio:

http://www.moneyweek.com/investment-advice/how-to-invest/the-lazy-investors-guide-to-making-money


I don't think you've appreciated the full horror of that portfolio...

Unless I've made a mistake checking the dividends, only 5 of its 16 shares have avoided cutting their dividends since the date of the article: Pearson, Compass, National Grid, GlaxoSmithKline and Diageo. And of the 11 that did cut their dividends, not a single one has yet managed to grow its payout back up to the 2008 level.

Early 2008 was of course (with hindsight) a dreadful time to be buying shares, just as banks were (with hindsight) a dreadful sector to buying shares in. Unfortunately, in neither case do we have the benefit of hindsight at the time of purchase... Fortunately, in both cases we have the solution of diversification: just as the shares should be bought in a wide variety of sectors to minimise the risk of being hurt badly by choosing the wrong sector, they should IMHO ideally be bought at a wide variety of different times to minimise the risk of being hurt badly by choosing the wrong time to buy...

And by that, I don't mean spreading the purchases out over a few months - that's like buying only retailers and thinking you've diversified well because you've got a supermarket, a pharmacy chain, a fashion retailer, a toys retailer, a cars&bikes retailer, a carpet retailer, etc. Nor even spreading them over a few years - that's like diversifying over a number of sectors, but only the financial sectors. No, in my view you should ideally spread your share purchases out over a few decades, i.e. basically over your investing lifetime... Might not be possible, of course: if you're already at the point of retirement when you get a lump sum to invest, it's a bit late for spreading the purchases over decades! But if can, spread them out well over time...

Gengulphus

valueinvestor123 27 Sep 2012 , 9:52pm

What actually happens to income reinvestment/corporate actions capital with HYP1 in practice? Where is it reinvested? Back into same shares? (What if it's a take over?)
Is it not contrary the HYP principle to reinvest the capital in shares that do not qualify as an HYP share anymore? (aside from magnifying the problem of imbalance) That way, HYP might quickly turn from an income generating portfolio into a growth one!

equitybore 28 Sep 2012 , 8:13am

My sole contribution would be the research that re-balancing a portfolio regularly yields higher returns that not so doing. This I think negates a complete "fire and forget" approach to HYP, but still supports the view that too much activity reduces returns.

ScottishPound 28 Sep 2012 , 9:14am

I'm so glad I have decided to avoid being rule-bound. My portfolio has a mix of HY'ers, HYOC'ers and ones that grow the capital and together create a portfolio that provides me with adequate income and capital that both grow more than inflation, by concentrating on which companies to buy and when.

AleisterCrowley 28 Sep 2012 , 10:22am

Hi ScottishPound- ".. HYOC'ers .."

Why? Does YoC have any relevance to today and the future?
Other than giving one a smug feeling of course.. :-)

Luniversal 28 Sep 2012 , 11:05am

LOL at the folks who just feel 'intuitively' that it's wrong to let a portfolio be, and the tidy minds which shrink from an 'unbalanced' portfolio if some shares are inconveniently doing even better than others at the job they were tasked with: producing income.

Your unfailing nose for what is 'balanced' will lead you to switch at the right moment into another share, underrated by a stupid market consensus (perhaps 'ridiculously' so). And that will let you get even more dividend over and above the common herd, all the time, right?

Bet you it won't.

This is precisely the Middle-Aged Male Fiddle About Syndrome which Pyad has decried above.

Never mind the mountain of evidence against being able to hop from stepping stone to stepping stone without tripping (no reason why it should not apply to divis as much as prices) in a largely efficient stock market.

Never mind the backtests I have done for the crisis period, which show that tinkering for some arithmetical Holy Grail of balance in a HYP is futile, and that portfolios do adequate course corrections if left to the devices and desires of market trading:

http://boards.fool.co.uk/tinker-ye-not-a-case-study-12420801.aspx?sort=whole

Never mind the impracticality of most target holders of a HYP-- pensioners in their declining years-- performing ingenious gyrations accurately or consistently.

No, the 'I can make a simple system even better with my bells and whistles' crowd will never be hushed, because they are working off speculative impulses... in an unsuitable direction.

Tweaking sates their frustrations, whereas to accept evidence of its pointlessness would leave them snnoyed at the probability of their self-harming incompetence should they deal actively hereabouts, or at all. So they blank out the evidence.

Invincible ignorance, the missionaries used to call it.

AleisterCrowley 28 Sep 2012 , 11:13am

You're not convinced then, Luniversal ? :-0

goodlifer 28 Sep 2012 , 12:37pm

It seems to me that Mr Bland is almost certainly right to say that, on balance, busy traders are more likely to lose money than to make it.

Does it follow from this that it's ALWAYS wrong to trade?

koochak 28 Sep 2012 , 12:46pm

I read Luniversal's comment hoping to find the answer to the question I posed at 16:56 yesterday but didn't.
Is that a hard question? Please simply answer: option 1 or option 2?

goodlifer 28 Sep 2012 , 1:00pm

koochak
"Say I formed my HYP one year ago. Today I want to invest all the dividends I have received.
Would I:
1. Invest in shares I already hold, i.e. those that qualified for HYP one year ago.
2. Invest in shares that qualify for HYP now."

I don't care what anybody says, I'd go for what looks like the best value today.

ScottishPound 28 Sep 2012 , 1:10pm

AleisterCrowley - HYOC'ers

By way of example, I bought Babcock shares in 2001 @ 98.5p and if memory serves the yield was around 1.7%, so definitely not in HYP territory.
I still have them today with a price of 927p and a historic yield of around 2.5%, so still not in HYP territory, but equates to a YOC of 23.5% (ignoring inflation).

The point is that over the 11 years I have held these Babcock shares, I have had my original stake more then returned in dividends alone and the capital has grown more than adequately, so for me they are a high income share even though they have never satisfied the "rules" for a HYP.

No smuggness, just the sustained good Total Return I look for in an investment.

This is the sort of opportunity that blinkered HYPists do not allow themselves to see or take.

koochak 28 Sep 2012 , 1:13pm

goodlifer, I agree with you and I would switch my existing holdings also (after all I want best value for all of my wealth). But advocates of HYP would say I should not do this because my 'invincible ignorance' would lead me astray.

koochak 28 Sep 2012 , 1:18pm

Do hold-forever advocates tattoo the tickers on their arm?

goodlifer 28 Sep 2012 , 2:01pm

koochak
"Invincible ignorance' would lead me astray."

How dreadful!
I'm afraid I'm such an invincibly ignorant pleb I probably wouldn't even notice.

goodlifer 28 Sep 2012 , 2:17pm

Further thoughts:

In my own very limited experience I've never actually lost money by tinkering.
Would I have made more by masterly inactivity?
Too difficult to calculate, but I can't help thinking I wouldn't,
Good old "invincible ignorance?"

Yet, "Of all sad words of tongue or pen,
The saddest are these: "It might have been!

And would I have slept as well?

goodlifer 28 Sep 2012 , 2:18pm
AleisterCrowley 28 Sep 2012 , 2:46pm

ScottishPound - would you retain a share in your portfolio because it had a high YoC?

ProfessorMarcus 28 Sep 2012 , 2:56pm

Hi Luniversal.

Would you have been happy to buy and hold until eternity the HYP portfolio that I referred to yesterday?

ScottishPound 28 Sep 2012 , 3:08pm

AC - when a share has a good record of paying rising dividends, good dividend cover and a share price that rises accordingly then that is a share that is welcome in my portfolio even though it may not be a classic HYP share.

Calculating YOC gives some indication that the share has become High Income and, if the fundamentals are right, it may give better future income than some HY shares with more static share prices.

ANuvver 28 Sep 2012 , 4:41pm

Interesting, and thanks to all.

I'm not really au fait with high-cant HYPology, but I think it seems to come - as many income-based strategies do - with the the notion built in of minimising the damage that ticker watching can do. I'm all in favour of that. A focus on equities as part-ownership of companies that generate income has allowed me to watch great wallops down with a philosophical attitude.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but surely the right kind of HPY share will hopefully be bought at value, meaning that some degree of capital gain across a HPY portfolio will tend to accrue. That is, with a share in a company that produces reliable earnings growth and dividend increases over the medium to long term, the price will tend to play catch-up.

It's all very well if one can fund fresh purchases (HYP of course) out of income alone (from shares or fresh money). But surely you also have to start thinking about whether to take advantage of your annual CGT allowance?

I wouldn't regard taking advantage of tax efficiency as tinkering - rather, something like skimming or adjusting.

HYP is a sound idea to my mind - a sort of marriage of LTBH and Dogs of the Dow. It has great value as a core principle, but as with any "system", how you apply it is up to you. It's not a religion, and I don't think Stephen ever attempted to sell it as such.

itsallaguess 28 Sep 2012 , 7:50pm

Pyad says :- "What I claim to have devised is the structured version I call HYP aimed at the hands-off investor with its particular rules, of which the most fundamental and unwavering is diversification."

If diversification is so 'fundamental and unwavering', then why does the Pyad HYP strategy, from the very outset after initial purchase, move ever inwards from that diversified position to a known (HYP1) position of being fundamentally and unwaveringly un-diversified in both capital and income ?

If the answer to that is that we don't know who the survivors will be, so we grab a handful and sit back to see who lucks out, then surely we're only half-way through the HYP1 story, with lots of sad tales yet to tell ?

If one of those sad tales happens to be told about the few remaining 'important' stocks in HYP1 that are still delivering the income, then woe betide Doris this winter.....

Itsallaguess

goodlifer 28 Sep 2012 , 8:37pm

ANuvver
"It's not a religion, and I don't think Stephen ever attempted to sell it as such."

I'm beginning to wonder.
Perhaps they're just a sect?

MDW1954 28 Sep 2012 , 10:00pm

I'm with Luniversal. Tinker out= one risk; tinker in=another. Double the risk, in short.

itsallaguess 28 Sep 2012 , 11:03pm

MDW1954 says :- "Tinker out= one risk; tinker in=another. Double the risk, in short."

Hi Malcolm,

In principle I agree with you, but what cannot be ignored, whilst taking that principal into consideration, is the potential risks involved in 'not' tinkering, if the end result in 'not' doing so is the live experiment that is HYP1.

I think we'd all agree that if we had a massive lump sum 'today' to spend, then we wouldn't go out and buy HYP1 in all its entirety as it stands currently as a portfolio. If anyone is happy to stand up and say that they 'would', then I've yet to hear them say so, and what the rational for that decision would be....

With that being the case then, we've got to ask 'why' that would not be the best way to spend a massive lump sum today ?

At least part of the answer to that question must be that there is a large element of risk in doing so. I say 'element' to be polite to HYP1, as it's a risky income portfolio as it stands today, in terms of both capital risk and income risk. If anyone is willing to stand up and say that HYP1 'doesn't' contain massive elements of capital and income risk, then I've yet to see them say that...

One question :- If there 'isn't' any capital or income risk to buying HYP1 as it stands today, then why did Pyad 'insist' on capital-and-15-share diversification to be at the heart of the initial HYP-buying strategy ? It doesn't seem to matter now, so why did it matter (it's at the 'heart' of the strategy don't forget..) then ?

As I see it, to say that carrying out some sort of income-and-capital levelling operation such as Terrys well-known system will involve a bit of risk is not a valid argument 'not' to do so, if by simply 'not' doing so you are going to end up in a position of risk 'anyway'....

It seems that the only argument offered by Pyad as to why it's a bad idea is that 'we' can't be trusted to spend our own money. I'd have to ask why we can be absolutely trusted with our own money up to the point of 'initial-HYP-purchase', and then it's accepted that we lose all our marbles and cannot be trusted to 'ever' make a good financial decision ever again. That in itself seems ludicrous, and I've yet to hear a good explanation for it, apart from 'It must be right, because I deemed it so...'

I remain of the feeling that Pyad has designed a superb initial system of equity income-generation. There can be no doubt to that, but to then go on to say that it was perfect from the outset and can never be even 'slightly' changed to offer extra benefits, reveals a monumental hurdle over which we're all trying to get over in any sensible way.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Luniversal 29 Sep 2012 , 2:56pm

Professor Marcus wrote:

"Hi Luniversal.

Would you have been happy to buy and hold until eternity the HYP portfolio that I referred to yesterday?"

Silly question.

I have evolved a methodology for choosing one's HYP shares based on a hard core of super-duper payers and derisking the outcome with a rainy-day kitty. Such tactics obviate tinkering. They are based on much deeper research into equities' characteristics than Pyad, who glories in his laziness and is manifestly not an adept stock selector, would dream of undertaking.

I would not buy anyone else's choice of stocks since they would be unlikely to agree entirely with my own, although there is plenty of quality in Pyad's 2008 one. You cannot condemn a 25-year project by what befell some companies in the first couple of years; such impatience is nothing but a symptom of the Do-Something disease.

Observe the HYP guidelines of sectoral separation, good track records in paying out, comfortable gearing etc and be confident that a portfolio of as few as 15 shares, if protected by a safety margin (withdrawing less income than it generates), will see you all right against inflation. That is, unless the next ten or twelve years are unimaginably worse than the last-- then the Paracetamol bottle beckons.

The HYP system is robust enough to withstand a good deal of ill luck in entry timing, as my intentionally 'impaired' test, Passive HYP, dating from Jan. 2006, shows. It has bounced back despite housing a kennel full of dogs such as Lloyds, GKN, Dixons, Persimmon. Dabblers have too little faith in the judgement of their fellow participants in the market. It is a way of being a self-important know-all. Investors with a little learning need a lot of humility.

Be very careful about which stocks you pick and you won't have to repair much damage later. Most big, quality companies neither shine nor fizzle. Takeovers and disasters apart-- for example, being forced to sell a stock because it has stopped paying out with no sign of resumption-- I'll sit tight. The odds are that mucking about with the original choice in the name of a platonic ideal of 'balance' will be counter-productive. Switching for more income is misguided too; the yield you begin with, plus inflation, should be enough. Greed or the mere itch to meddle are not your friends.

Instead of all these rhetorical questions about the logic of staying put after purchase despite things changing, study the dreary facts of performance. Time and again it has been found that churning lines the brokers' pockets, not the punters'.

Ah, but you're special, aren't you? And this time it's different...

Luniversal 29 Sep 2012 , 3:07pm

Koochak wrote:

"Say I formed my HYP one year ago. Today I want to invest all the dividends I have received.
Would I:

1. Invest in shares I already hold, i.e. those that qualified for HYP one year ago.

2. Invest in shares that qualify for HYP now."

Neither.

A HYP is for drawing income, not ploughing it back.

My own four were all bought at a stroke, using lump sums accumulated by other investment techniques. I don't hold with pusillanimous drip-feeding into a portfolio, which is only tinkering avant la lettre. Get on or stay out.

If I have to reinvest the proceeds of a bid, I will as far as possible select a similar conpany in the vacant sector to uphold the original profile. Fortunately if you stick to big blue chips, such beastly events are rare.

ScottishPound 30 Sep 2012 , 9:13am

It is really simple:

Be right and sit tight,
But if its not working then change to something that will.

If a method does not "allow" this flexibility then change the method to improve it.

lookingforclues 01 Oct 2012 , 8:31am

koochak

The reason you buy an equal weighted and diversified basket of shares is because you do not know beforehand which shares will perform well and which poorly. You do know, however, that market (and therefore portfolio) evolution will give rise to a number of big winners which are typically responsible for the bulk of any gains. This is why you spread your bets in the first place - to capture a representative portion of those gains.

If you constantly rebalance then you are effectively saying you can do better than this natural evolution. More likely you will fare no better and, instead, simply incur trading costs.

lfc

AleisterCrowley 02 Oct 2012 , 11:36am

It's great this. It's like religion, but worse....

pickepics 02 Nov 2012 , 8:19pm

Stephen, if indeed you have "invented" an investing system, however robust, it is obvious from the above that most Fools do not want to follow your "rules". That includes me.

My main criticism, however, is that it should have a name, not an acronym. Most certainly, it is not worthy of an acronym which denotes an investment term generally understood in a wider context than you intend. It simply begs for exactly the nitpicking you deride, added to some very serious questioning.

Such questions might include "Where do people incapable of understanding markets generate significant amounts of money to invest in the first place?", "Why are they not using brokers, or pooled investment vehicles, rathr than stock picking to fulfil their investment aims?". To that may be added the already posed (at least twice above) "How come they had the good sense to pick a HYP selection as you define it in the first place?".

I do accept there are far too many people losing money by investing or trading unwisely. We do not volunteer to become Fools if we wish to remain, or ever were, such fools, surely?

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