How Much Should You Be Taking Out For A Pension?

Published in Investing on 3 February 2012

Do you live by the 4% rule or think it's too mean -- or maybe too generous?

Could you live comfortably on a 4% drawdown from your investment pot?

If so, happy retirement. If not, keep plugging away.

The 4% is the magic figure financial planner William Bengen came up with in a study in 1994. Based on a study over 75 years' worth of returns, Bengen found that retirees who draw down no more than 4.2% in the first year, and adjust that amount in subsequent years for inflation, stand a good chance their money will outlive them.

He also found that retirees who draw down 5% a year run a 30% chance their investment pot will bite the dust before they do.

Since then, his analysis has been disputed in both ways. It's seen as being a bit too mean for some people who, quite understandably, want to take out a big chunk on retirement and work their way through their money while they're still willing and able to. On the other hand, it's been criticised as being too generous in today's world of near meaningless interest rates, when trustworthy gilt yields are tiny.

The 1998 "Trinity Study" agreed with the 4% safe withdrawal rule-of-thumb. It concluded that in a retirement portfolio that includes a mix of stocks and bonds, then 4% works well over the long run.

This study accepted that withdrawals may exceed the income earned, and the value of the portfolio will shrink during bear markets. It also assumed that the portfolio needs to last 30 years.

What about me?

The 4% rule seems a good one to live by if you can, and if you like the idea of your capital staying in place.

But the truth is there is no "one size fits all" approach. It all depends whether you want to whittle away your capital while you can, or leave it in place for your dependents or your care if you live a very long time.

Of course, it also depends on what you perceive that you need to live on. I'm sure we all know people in retirement from both ends of the spectrum. There are those who spend nothing like 4% of their non-home assets annually as they're trapped in a penurious lifestyle that was a real necessity earlier in life. Then there are those who live to the financial maximum while they still can.

An excellent Foolish discussion thread looked at the reality of retiring at 55 last spring. It's definitely worth a read if you're contemplating retirement or semi-retirement, as it explores other facets of a retiree's life beyond the financial; life isn't all about money. Some retirees find they spend less and enjoy doing so; others spend more due to the desire to travel or due to healthcare necessities.

So the 4% rule has to be taken for what it is -- a guide to stick to if you want your investments to pay your way and to stay in place.

Fools do better

I would imagine that most Fools do a lot better than 4% as an overall measure of capital growth. But then most Fools probably aren't typical of the population as a whole; I would guess they're a lot better informed than average, with generally larger pension pots.

I certainly hope so anyway. The latest data from the Department for Work and Pensions show that just 38% of working-aged people in the UK are saving into private pensions; the lowest level for a decade.

There are lots of shares around that will give you much better than 4% return in dividend yields if they're sustainable. But what about inflation? Funnily enough, the Consumer Prices Index was running at exactly the same rate (4.2%) as Bengen's suggested pension draw-down in December. So if you're okay at 4.2%, you should theoretically be treading water at least. But you're going to have to just beat 4.2% as an annualised return to stand still and take an income while keeping pace with the rising cost of living.

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Comments

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Hannibalis 03 Feb 2012 , 6:04pm

The problem is that people are living longer - every 4 years the life expectancy increases 1 year.

My own approach is to plan to live on the *income* only. As the article says, with inflation so high, this is problematic, but inflation will come down. Using this 'income' approach requires a bigger nest egg - although if you can push up the yield (e.g. with PIBS, prefs, corporate bonds etc.) this may not be a major difference.

http://www.the-diy-income-investor.com/2011/03/how-much-is-enough.html

GrahamMiller0 06 Feb 2012 , 2:25pm

So, do I read this right? If you take 4% pa, adjusted for inflation, your money should last 30 years?

For those of us who dream about early retirement, how do you calculate the percentage if your life expectancy is (say) 40 years?

taken2often 06 Feb 2012 , 2:25pm

I agree with you and your range of investments. Although I have started to fill in gaps with high yield investment trusts a number of these off shore but run from Britain. No tax no stamp duty. I am using IT's to give me indexing for the long term.

The only problem is that the Pension rules are not suitable for Sipps. One of my Sipps is growing 40% per year more than I am allowed to draw. Depriving the Revenue of tax. Strange Rules or what.

Cheers

fishy12 06 Feb 2012 , 2:35pm

I take about 6%from my pension .I'm 67 and take the view I want max income while I can still enjoy it, also I will have less need of income if I survive into my 80's or 90's.
Up to now I have had no problem with capital declining, but fortunately I have a larger ISA plot where I tend to preserve my other capital rather than the pension.In this case I can pass my investments to my wife and children. As I'm in drawdown any amount remaining can go to my spouse on death, she already has a pension pot not yet crystallised. I think everybody has an individual approach to financial planning and you cannot apply a general rule ,I find the withdrawl tax on pensions to be hard and much prefer the ISA's. So I will deplete my pension first by taking the maximum drawdown, if I have enough to invest it will go into my ISA's. Wish you all a long healthy wealthy life.

ianaharris100 06 Feb 2012 , 3:14pm

I'm in drawdown, and my SIPP is almost entirely invested in high-yielders like Shell, Aviva, NG etc, so I reckon if I draw no more than the divi income, capital values over the long term should keep up with inflation, and my wife will get it when I pop off. As she is much younger than me, the annuity rates, especially inflation-proofed, would have been ludicrous.
However, with low annuity rates the Government restricts how much income you can draw, which has come as a shock to some people as it suddenly reduces. I don't draw as much as I could, but I think the current maximum is less than my divi income! Luckily I also have a maxi state pension, not having opted out of SERPS, or I might be struggling.

MinnowMummer 06 Feb 2012 , 4:44pm

sorry to appear stupid but i've always been under the impression that pension had to be lump sum plus anuity, (foolish member hoping to graduate to Foolish member) the discussion above on drawdown implies and please correct any mistakes, that on retirement i can re-invest my pot in stocks and shares and try and live off 4% of pot's value which if invested in higher dividend paying shares should increase the pot (ignoring inflation).
should say that pension has come onto my horizon as it 10y to retiring and have decided that it's time to do something about it having watched my pot(s) decline seriously this last 18m or so.
are there any pit falls or entrance criteria involved with drawdown?

Anstonman 06 Feb 2012 , 5:32pm

I've been retired for 12 years living off an equity portfolio. I take 5% each year.
The supporting figures I use to justify the 5% are as follows:-
Long term inflation = 2.5%.
Real return on cash = 2% (Nominal = 4.5%)
Gilts outperform cash by 0.5% = 2.5% (Nom. 5.0%)
Equities outperform Gilts by 2.5% = 5%(Nom. 7.5%).
It would take too long to justify these figures here but take as read for the moment.
Therefore with a 100% equity portfolio I can take 5% inflation linked income.
BUT, if I had a balanced portfolio my nominal would be more like 6%.
With fund charges at 1% my nominal is 5%.
With tax my nominal is 4%.
Take off inflation and I am left with real return/income of 1.5%.
So,to take 5%, you must have 100% equity, pay no fees and pay no tax.
A self select equity ISA will give you this.
And of course it is not difficult TODAY to create a FTSE 100 income portfolio offering in excess of 5% dividend income. Job done.
When I first retired I could only get 2.5% dividend , the rest needed capital sales, but still tax free within 2 x CGT allowances.
It has worked so far and my capital is intact.

taken2often 06 Feb 2012 , 5:44pm

Minnow
Where do we start. First you need to know if your pension is Defined Benefit with a guaranteed annuity or Defined Contribution scheme. If the latter then it can be transferred but you have to check for penalties. If it costs to much to transfer out or it is a Defined Benefits then you can still put funds into a SIPP. All this needs research. The two companies that I use which are both low cost providers are
Sippdeal Ltd and Hargreaves Lansdown Ltd, Both have good sites with lots of information and you can trade through them. There is also Motley Fool Sipp discussion Board but you need to search for it. A HYP (high yield portfolio board and a pensions board.

Trust this helps a little
Cheers

johnyv 06 Feb 2012 , 6:04pm

I agree very much with Fishy12. I do not have a massive pension pot but am in draw down. I like to draw as much as possible from my pension pot but initially kept my total income below the higher rate tax band. Some of the money is reinvested in ISAs for my wife and myself to give maximum flexibility and tax free gains. We normally take out half in long term higher interest cash ISAs and half in stocks and shares ISAs. As the pension pot dwindles I will reduce my drawings so that my total income is below the claw back incom tax level of about £24,000 after which the higher age income allowance is clawed back £1 for every £2 drawn i.e. 50% and our income will be topped up as required from our ISAs. We also pay in £2800 per annum into a low cost SIPP and this is topped up to £3600 by the inland revenue and eventually we will draw down from this also. As far as I am concerned I have paid too much tax during my working life and like to avoid tax in retirement.

danguee 06 Feb 2012 , 8:38pm

I'm not aiming to get it 'just right' i.e. drawing on my capital so I just run out of capital just as I croak. I think that's a dangerous strategy. Besides I do want to leave something for my kids.

I'm more interested in having a fund which will keep pace with inflation while I live off the ex-inflation growth plus the dividends. But such a strategy needs to leave scope for 'crashes'. When your fund is slashed by a big dip in equity values, if you have to sell shares to fund your lifestyle, you will have to sell more shares to do that because their value has gone down - and that will have a big impact on its viability going forward.

So my strategy is going to aim to have a fund whose capital initially is a decent percentage better than the ideal/minimum (giving me an initial buffer) and therefore on average its ongoing capital value grows slightly ahead of inflation - thereby giving me a bit more of a buffer. Anyone who's seen their fund (mine's almost all BRICS) plummet during 2011 will understand what I'm getting at.

And be prepared at times to tighten my belt if the circumstances demand.

I concede I am lucky to have this option - many don't. But if you do, my advice would be: work/save just a bit longer to build in that buffer because once you have to start eating significantly into your capital, it's a slippery slope and a vicious circle...

I've been lucky in the past - my stocks have grown by average, nearly 15% over nearly two decades. But I'm assuming the future - with Baby Boomers selling shares to fund their lifestyle - may not be so lucrative. But I reckon my BRICS will give me 7% over inflation and I'm happy to take 5% of those and leave 2% for slowly building up a buffer. And one day feel happy to take all of the 7% once my buffer is happy.

For me, that means a retirement fund of £600k for an income of £30k at today's prices.

Happy retirement, all!

Jimi97 06 Feb 2012 , 8:43pm

MinnowMummer,

Your impression WAS correct - and still is, unless you qualify for income drawdown under the Government's rules. In essence, you have to have £20k assured (normally pension) income, other than the intended income drawdown. If you qualify, you don't have to use your pension pot to buy an annuity, but can draw an income from the income (plus some capital, as desired). This income is taxable. The problem alluded to in other posts is that the limits on income drawdown (to protect the incompetent) can prevent some (lucky folk) accessing all their interest. Sympathy for the Government on this costing them tax income is misplaced, as HMRC will take a much bigger fraction when the person dies!

goodlifer 06 Feb 2012 , 9:33pm

Hannibalis

"Inflation will come down."

Really?
When?

What about that toxic cocktail of stagnant GDP, massive government debt, quantitative easing and rising energy and commodity prices?

taken2often 06 Feb 2012 , 11:10pm

Jimi All that you say has truth, but the Revenue may have to wait a long long time for their money if the pension is passed on to a spouse or a dependant. My point is that the Revenue invested in my pension giving me tax relief so that they will enjoy the fruits. If an annuity is bought they get their tax. As the rule makers do not understand dividend growth investing and compounding and that the capital sum can fluctuate widely over a 25/30 year pension life. The dividends can vary but not to the same extent as share price. That is why the GAD rate is unfair and needs reviewed. SIPPAG means sipp action group. Cheers

MinnowMummer 07 Feb 2012 , 12:24pm

taken2often and Jimi97 many thanks for the response(s); alas defined contribution pots, i'll take on board the article and your comments which do make sense.

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