Looking Beyond The Numbers

Published in Investing on 16 June 2011

Sometimes an investment just doesn't smell right.

In last week's article I argued that value is overwhelmingly about the quantitative aspects of a share, with other stuff like the nature of the business being very much secondary. 

Additionally, I mentioned that even the quantitative aspects don't need researching beyond a certain quite limited point, so as to prevent the investor entering overanalysis.

Overanalysing is not merely carrying out extensive numerical dissection of a share in the hope that it will improve selection. It's also a negative state of mind which can persuade the investor subconsciously that the share ought to be bought in order just to avoid wasting all that time spent investigating it. Less is more.

Not the numbers

This week I want to review that small amount of value share appraisal which is non numerical. Because unless you are doing this wholly mechanically, which you could but it is not my preferred value approach, there is a certain something, call it smell or personal prejudice towards certain businesses or whatever that does come into play sometimes.

One of the features of a value share that I dislike, mentioned last week, is where the business is largely overseas even though it is UK listed and there are now many such companies here. 

That is made much worse where it is somewhere dodgy so that you can't trust the figures but even if in what we regard as a solid country, I am still wary. The US for example, as solid as they come from the point of view of a good business environment and regulated stock market, has long been a graveyard for UK companies.

This is a place that a long time ago I called Bongo Bongo Land, a mythical country somewhere outside of the M25, which, for reason alone that it is outside the M25 and therefore of territory with which I'm familiar, adds a layer of risk which I can do without in general. 

I'm not saying I'd never consider such a share, in fact I have traded them in the past, but I'd be ultra cautious in such cases and were I to go in, would probably in compensation seek deeper value cred than otherwise.

The wrong smell

Another possible obstacle for me, difficult to define, is where I just don't like the business, smell if you like. For most value plays as I've said, the nature of the business does not matter. But very occasionally and it's hard to say why, it does. 

Perhaps an example might help. I looked a while back at Home Retail (LSE: HOME). This is the company that runs the Argos catalogue shops and the Homebase DIY chain. It actually had a fair amount of value cred for a retailer.

But I hate Argos. I hate them enough to avoid the shares. I hate the whole concept -- the general atmosphere of the place, the fact that you can't see the goods before buying, the double queue where you wait to pay then wait to collect and so on. I fail to see why they exist at all compared with normal retailers. Possibly it used to be price, but that time's long gone. On the few occasions I've bought stuff in there, electrical goods, too often they were faulty and I had to return them. I try to be unsentimental with value plays but even I have my limits.

And I say all this whilst at the same time counselling investors not to be influenced by personal experience. There is a school of thought that actually encourages personal experience as one feature of assessing a share, though it is severely restricted to certain types of business. For example it is easy to sample retailers but not quite so easy to do the same with a manufacturer of nukes. But I am not a pupil in this school.

But it's odd, mere hatred is not enough to put me off a value play. I loathe the way insurance companies have too frequently and cynically failed investors with their various trashy products over the years but it don't stop me buying their shares. There's hatred and then there's hatred.

I find it difficult though to get this idea across to value players because it is often irrational and I'm not normally irrational in general, well, no more than anyone I guess. But sometimes I just think, I'm not investing in that, there's something that I just don't like about it even if I can't quite put my finger on it. 

Maybe it's because I've been in business almost all my life and have advised a large number too, thereby forming a sort of gut instinct about things that I think might work and those that may not.

The more marginal the value criteria, the more weight I would put on disliking the business if that is the case. And in the opposite direction, the stronger the value criteria, the less weight I'd put on this aspect. What this means is that even Home Retail would appeal, if it was cheap enough on value filters.

But I can be wrong of course, like the record company who turned down the Beatles. That value play I bargepoled because I didn't like its business may well turn out to be a big winner. This has actually happened in the past and as I say, I try not to let this kind of thing influence me much.

It is all about the numbers in most cases, but very occasionally a little something else creeps in to affect my opinion.

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Comments

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BarrenFluffit 16 Jun 2011 , 11:14am

Its a good point. Selling PPI was good business for the banks and I'm sure it fed through into the figures. But its a fine line between a profitable product and a future liability.

I think the argos model primarily reduces theft and security costs.

Luniversal 16 Jun 2011 , 12:25pm

One wonders what subconscious (indeed, subterranean) drives lay behind Pyad's affection for 'holes in the ground' when he picked two to go into the 15 shares in his first High Yield Portfolio.

Just as well, since they are the force propelling HYP1's capital gains, if not its income.

And what fragrance was potent enough to convince him to go nap on Aviva in his Value portfolio, despite the generalised loathing of insurers vented here? "Mere hatred is not enough to put me off a value play". You can say that again.

And too much analysis is "a negative state of mind which can persuade the investor subconsciously that the share ought to be bought in order just to avoid wasting all that time spent investigating it", is it?

Why shouldn't too little analysis be a subconscious way of avoiding the discovery of drawbacks in a share you've taken an instinctive shine to?

"Lack of knowledge is power". (Pyad, Jun. 2011).

ProfessorMarcus 16 Jun 2011 , 12:42pm

Re: "Lack of knowledge is power". (Pyad, Jun. 2011).

Newspeak but not as good as:

"Ignorance is Strength".

(Orwell, 1948).

;-)

NigelTMF 16 Jun 2011 , 12:44pm

"One wonders what subconscious (indeed, subterranean) drives lay behind Pyad's affection for 'holes in the ground' when he picked two to go into the 15 shares in his first High Yield Portfolio."

The HYP was essentially a mechanical selection based on his filters and sectors.... so hopefully no subconscious influence came to bear on the selections....

Hopefully smell is used to PREVENT you form making an investment rather than using SMELL to make the investment? Do the numbers and make the judgement against value criteria and then use smell to make the but or not to buy decision. Dont use SMELL to make the decision to but and then make the number fit (or flex) to your value criteria.

Nigel

NigelTMF 16 Jun 2011 , 12:45pm

Sorry I cant smell...

Replace BUT with BUY in the above message...

Nigel

VoxVoci 16 Jun 2011 , 1:01pm

"But I hate Argos. I hate them enough to avoid the shares. I hate the whole concept -- the general atmosphere of the place, the fact that you can't see the goods before buying, the double queue where you wait to pay then wait to collect and so on. I fail to see why they exist at all compared with normal retailers."

-------------------------

That's exactly how I feel about the place. The last time I shopped there it was an awful experience for all the reasons mentioned above. Have not shopped there for years now and have no intention of doing so any time soon.

DIYIncome 16 Jun 2011 , 1:17pm

Well somebody shops there - although clearly not as much as before.

The main advantage is that you get immediate physical possession of the goods (and you can open them up and look at the product if you want) plus you can return them yourself if they are faulty. If you've ever sat at home waiting for an internet delivery, you'll know how unreliable they can be.

The 'warehouse'-type operation means you can have a wide range of goods available on the high street.

So I'm not so sure it is a bad business model - its just a difficult time in the high street generally.

jaizan 16 Jun 2011 , 7:11pm

Shopping at Argos is a truly miserable experience, for the reasons mentioned above, plus the miserable demotivated slow staff. And my local store is about 500m from their HQ

Also, Argos are being squeezed. Tesco are competing on the high volume lines and it's a lot easier to get the low volume lines from Amazon. I am very happy about this trend.

The only question is, how low does the share price have to go before it offsets these problems and leaves a margin of safety?
I cannot foresee Argos failing, in the same way HMV probably will.

As another example.
Interestingly, for about 3 years I've noticed service at the local Tesco is slipping, although nowhere near as bad as Argos. Long queues, lame excuses, automated tills not working and the stuff I want to buy is not on the shelves. Sainsburys now do a much better job. It seems they are reporting better sales growth too.
Asda are not so bad, but the store layout seems to be the work of the village idiot, so I cannot find anything.

pirro 16 Jun 2011 , 10:00pm

Argos is another business being beaten by supermarkets. Tesco Direct, and now Sainsburys and Asda Direct are almost direct competitors. Argos is good if you want something immediately, but if you can wait 24hrs, then have it delivered to your local Tesco, and pick it up with your food shopping or fuel. I did it twice last month and felt glad that I didn't buy those Argos shares a few years back.

I used to admire the Argos stock checker and the automated payment machines, and the order collection announcements - I liked the efficiency drive, and the early adoption of technology, but Amazon and the supermarkets are competing on 2 fronts with them now. My guess is that they will be winning for a while longer.

I don't see Argos as the next HMV. Game Group will be interesting to watch though.

I don't think service is a great indicator in big retailing. It is often more about convenience / choice / price. I don't remember getting particularly poor service at Woolworths, and I'll keep shopping at Tesco and Waitrose as they are near my house and have easy parking.

kjq100 17 Jun 2011 , 12:24am

Perhaps I will be the only dissenting voice to the views expressed so far, but to honest I am fine with that.

Ultimately it is a matter of choice... The fact that you can choose an item, pay for it, walk in and out and only say thank you, (manners always matter), is a great thing.

If this was such a bad concept why have tesco, sainsburys & asda introduced self service tills?

Deal with it people... some people have different preferences to you - that is not a bad thing!

K

UncleEbenezer 17 Jun 2011 , 12:17pm

Does Argos really still have those funny high-street shops?

I bought quite a lot of stuff (headed by a whole kitchen's worth of white goods) from Argos when I moved house in 2005. Shopping online with them was an altogether good experience, backed by very fast and efficient delivery.

Contrast the similar order (including fridge-freezer) I initially placed with another online retailer (Comet), only to find delivery delayed, and a total muddle when I phoned to try and chase it. The remedy: cancel that order and place another one with Argos, who delivered early the following morning!

jaizan 17 Jun 2011 , 11:27pm

"The fact that you can choose an item, pay for it, walk in and out and only say thank you, (manners always matter), is a great thing."

Argos show no manners in keeping their customers waiting for so long.

somedangfool 20 Jun 2011 , 3:09pm

Do any other fools subscribe to the view that M&S shares remain a sell thanks to the changes wrought on that Rose chappie's watch. I'm not a frequent clothes shopper, but I used to buy food.

But oh how dismal it has become - cheerless black uniforms, self-service tills and that AWFUL Post-Office queue and disembodied voice at the quick service tills (neither quick nor much of a service). Even if the egg and bacon sandwiches are as good as ever, M&S steals a little bit of your soul every time you enter.

Anyone like to run a model shorting portfolio based on these irrational prejudices? It could be called the Bongo-Bongo portfolio, courtesy of that Bland fella.

uglyrumour 20 Jun 2011 , 5:55pm

"outside the M25"???? slagging off Argos? making decisions on the basis of prejudice and smell?

I can't decide whether this is a brilliant piece of satire or whether the Mr Bland is the kind of sad smug ignorant fool who gets a nose bleed as soon as he drives north of Scratchwood services? I certainly haven't got the patience to read his other posts.

Viva the PRT!

btw, continuing the Argos thread, I have found their reserve on-line and collection option to be a pleasure to use. The last time I used it I was no more than 5 minutes in their store. Beats standing in the check-out queues at M&S or Tesco.



Jimi97 20 Jun 2011 , 6:04pm

Didn't you used to be able to redeem Green Shield Stamps at Argos? (he says, showing his age!)

Once upon a time, the Argos model had its points: not only does it (almost) eliminate shoplifting, but the warehouse style should make for a more efficient use of floor area. Unfortunately, the concept comes from the 1970s, even though they have made some efforts to enter the Internet era.

Does it still work? Possibly not, but I'm not sure it's worse than traditional shops. Is it an investment opportunity? Not for me!

venkatsouth 20 Jun 2011 , 7:16pm

Shopping preference is a matter of choice, convenience and price. I quite like shopping at Argos and often prices compare well with even online store Amazon. Staff are alright and I find customer service the same or worse as elsewhere. It is the quickest way to buy stuff , no queuing and they take returns with no fuss (very important). Besides I find I have to queue up long at Tesco , especially late evenings when I shop. Stopped going to comet a long time ago as awful behavior.

ScottishPound 21 Jun 2011 , 11:46am

The Argos model works for me.

Being able to check stock over the internet, reserve an item and then go to the local store knowing that its there waiting to be picked up is far better than wandering round conventional shops or waiting for delivery of internet purchases.

RobinnBanks 26 Jun 2011 , 3:29pm

Re: ''Lack of knowledge is power' and 'Ignorance is strength.'

An 'Apprentice' applicant said, "I can bring ignorance to the table!"
Lord Sugar was not amused: "You're fired!

According to Ratner, the M&S sandwiches last longer than his jewellery!

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