The Brown Twigs Of Total Despair

Published in Investing on 7 July 2009

The economic future is worse than you could ever have imagined. The green shoots are just a figment of your imagination. Sorry.

This article is the bear case in our Duelling Fools feature on "Is The Economy Recovering?" Read the intro, bull case and then cast your vote here.

Let me preface this duel by saying I consider myself an optimist. My glass is half full. There is no use crying over spilt milk.

I say this because what you will read below may shock you. It may cause you to sell up all your shares, stuff all your money under the mattress, and head down to Tesco (LSE: TSCO) and Sainsbury (LSE: SBRY) to stock up on bottled water and baked beans.

You don't need to do any of that. It's not that bad. We've had recessions before, and recovered. We'll recover from this recession too. It just won't happen quickly.

Welcome To The Great Recession

Across the globe, most economists, politicians and central bankers agree this is the worst recession since the Great Depression of the 1930s. It has been dubbed The Great Recession.

Without getting into too much detail or blame, the root cause of the Great Recession is plunging US house prices. Greedy bankers lent too much money to greedy consumers so they could buy their McMansions in the sun. The problem with debt is you have to pay interest on it and you have to pay it back. You should know what happened next…

There has been a lot of talk about the "green shoots of recovery". US Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke first mentioned them way back in March, saying "…I do think that we will get (the economy) stabilised, and we'll see the recession coming to an end probably this year."

Worst For 50 Years

"Probably" is the key word. We are more than six months into 2009. That doesn't leave much time for the recession to end this year, especially when you consider…

  • FT 30 June 2009: "Official figures on Tuesday confirmed the UK had suffered its worst slump in output for 50 years…Even if the economy recovers in the second quarter to its normal 2.5 per cent annual growth rate, something economists think is highly unlikely, it is likely to take until 2011 before output returns to its pre-recession levels."

  • FT 1 July 2009: "Squeezed incomes coupled with rising job insecurity could at last spur people to start saving again. If so, the worst of the consumer slowdown may yet lie ahead. Then not just M&S and retailers but the entire corporate sector will suffer."

  • FT 6 July 2009: European house prices fell more quickly in the first three months of this year than even in the fourth quarter of 2008 when global recession struck, a trend that looks set to dim the region's hopes for economic recovery."

It's Even Worse In The US

And it gets even worse when you turn to the US. It is widely accepted that as the US lead us into this recession, they will lead us out again. That may be true, but to date, they don't look close to recovering.

The US shed 467,000 jobs in June, 100,000 worse than expected. Unemployment is 9.5%. According to the FT, "Temporary hiring, which tends to recover early, deteriorated sharply after marked improvement in May. Another leading indicator, the average working week, fell to a new record low of 33 hours…The mirage, and with it hopes of a speedy recovery, has vanished."

And then there are house prices. They continue to fall here in the UK, and thousands of people are in negative equity. In my 4 Predictions For 2009, I said UK house prices have another 25% to 35% to fall. I'm yet to see anything, like the willingness of banks to lend or unemployment falling, despite record low interest rates, to change my mind.

And where house prices go, so does the economy. Down.

It's Going To Get Worse

And in the US, the future looks even bleaker for house prices. Over there, home-owners can walk away from negative equity situations, and have been doing so in their thousands. It will ruin their credit status, but when you are sitting on a house you paid $400,000 for and today it is only worth $225,000, and your job is not very secure, you can understand their thinking.

Thousands of foreclosed houses across the country does nothing for house prices. And whilst house prices fall, banks continue to book losses. Whilst banks continue to book losses, they continue to be cautious lenders. Result? Whatever green shoots Ben Bernanke and co might have seen somewhere in the distance are turning to brown twigs of despair.

As Nassim Taleb, the man who predicted the world's economy was heading for disaster, said recently on CNBC's Squawk Box…

"You may have green shoots, whatever you want to call them, you may have temporary relief, but you are still in a world that's breaking…Anything that's fragile like the financial system will eventually crash…We're in the middle of a crash...So if I'm going to forecast something, it is that it's going to get worse, not better."

Smoking Crack About China

The green shoot brigade will no doubt point to a Chinese led recovery. They are smoking crack. We've just been though the greatest outsourcing binge the Western world has ever seen. All our clothes, our kitchenware, our tools, our electrical equipment and our whitegoods are now Made In China.

We simply cannot outsource anything more to China. That boom has finished. At the same time, and this is the killer "double-whammy" blow, the Western world is just not buying Chinese-made goods in nearly the same volume as we were in the go-go days of 2007. We're in recession, stupid.

Don't just take my word for it.

AFP 27 June 27 2009: "Empty container ships -- victims of China's export collapse -- line the river banks in Shanghai's port."

And there are few signs of Chinese recovery. Exports fell 22% in the first half from a year earlier, the Chinese Ministry of Commerce vice-minister Yi Xiaozhun said on the weekend. Mr Xiaozhun also said "The decrease puts huge pressure on China's economic growth, employment and corporate development."

Well, hello China. Despite spending billions of yuan on infrastructure to prop up the economy, the bottom line is China will only truly recover when the Western world recovers. As we've seen above, that isn't going to happen soon.

Debt, Taxes & Interest Rates

I could go on. For example, I haven't even touched on the incredible level of government debt across the globe, especially the US and UK. Taxes must go up in the future to pay for this spending binge. What do you think rising taxes is going to do for economic recovery?

And what about those record low interest rates? If the global economy was seeing green shoots of recovery, what aren't interest rates starting to edge higher? The Bank Of England will this week leave them at their record low of 0.5%.

Then there's the US Federal Reserve. They've just left US interest rates on hold at virtually zero percent, saying rates will stay at "exceptionally low levels" for an "extended period."

Bunker Down For The Long Haul

And what about consumers who've seen their pension funds and share portfolios slashed by 30% over the past 18 months? Do you think they are suddenly going to start spending again, kick-starting the economy? Fat chance. They are hidden in their bunkers, feverishly trying to hold onto their job and to save whatever money they can, whilst they can.

So where are those green shoots? They are a figment of your imagination. Settle in for a few years of tough times. Sorry.

I admit things are not as bad as they were. The economy is in the process of stabilising, but it is not there yet. All the green shooters have is hope, but unfortunately, hope doesn't make house prices rise or unemployment fall. Sorry.

More on this duel...

> If after reading this you want to sell all your shares, at least do it with The Motley Fool's Share Dealing Service. You can buy and sell shares in real time for a flat rate of just £10. Click here to find out how you can open an account for free today. There is no obligation to trade.

> Bruce Jackson does not have an interest in any of the companies mentioned in this article.

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Comments

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Terrapin1 07 Jul 2009 , 11:33am

Trouble for the bear case is that we cannot know the veracity of any data as it is cherry picked to suit the powers that be. Nobody wants to see a depression, but neither do we want a return to the madness of the past decade, and the relentless fat profits of banksters at everyone else's expense. Money printing versus reality- I'm guessing Broon and his chums want to inject so much cash into the economy that it looks rosey for the next election and fools all of the people for the last time.
Will banks lend as recklessly as last time? Yes of course.
Will they find new ways to con fat fees and interest out of customers? Of course.
Do we all want a return to morality? Yes- but we won't get it.
Greed it seems, is still good.

supasap 07 Jul 2009 , 11:44am

what matters is production of goods and services... and 20 plus million of us are still getting out of bed 5 days a week to do just that.... still say this is a mere blip compared to the 1970's and compared to 1930's it doesn't even register as hardship

Gengulphus 07 Jul 2009 , 7:38pm

... We are more than 7 months into 2009. ...

Hmm... I hope the other statements of fact in the article are more accurate than that one! ;-)

Gengulphus

Gengulphus 07 Jul 2009 , 7:42pm

That is, from the point of view of having a good debate. From the point of view of preferring to live in an economy that is doing well to one that is doing badly, I hope they're all just as inaccurate as that one!

Gengulphus

njleaton 07 Jul 2009 , 9:03pm

The bit that's missing from both arguments is the government and its debts and liabilities.

The government is overspending by 25%. It has to cut this spend before it can cut taxes. That is deflationary as the parasites are sacked. For example, replace VED with fuel duty and most of the DLVA can go. It's just make work. Vast swathes of government are just make work schemes.

Then there are the debts, as everyone one on the fool realises compound interest is great when you are saving, awful when you're in debt. The government liabilities are around the 8-9 trillion mark. That sucks vast amounts of cash out of the economy to overseas lenders.

End result is huge cuts, and increases in taxes will come to pay for the mess.

Next is the borrowing requirements. If you need to borrow more money, and threaten inflation, the the lenders will really want a pound of flesh. It's actually worse that the PSNB requirement, since lots of loans need to be rolled over.

It's not positive at all.

Nick

TMFGoogly 08 Jul 2009 , 1:07am

Oops. We are more than 6 months but less than 7 months into 2009.

Questing09 08 Jul 2009 , 6:41am

It's curious how eager people are to promote the doom and gloom scenario. I thought a key need to help get out of a financial depression was showing confidence and a belief that things could and would get better? (By coincidence, I'm re-watching "The World at War", and I can tell you, Britain wouldn't have stood a chance if we'd had more of your Contributors around then!)
I very much enjoyed Gengulphus's observation. Some facts are easier to check than others!

TMFGoogly 08 Jul 2009 , 10:26am

Remember this is a duel - a fight to the death. Obviously I was somewhat cherry picking the worst of the worst in order to make my case. As I said at the top of the article, I'm an optimist, and this recession will end. It's just not going to end as suddenly and as quickly as some green-shooters think. Rather than being plain pessimistic, I hope I'm being honestly realistic.

brilaine22 08 Jul 2009 , 3:06pm

Well said questong09, where is the british fighting spirit and humour, we need the media to help boost moral and confidence not keep knocking us down every time a glimmer of hope comes along.

Fingered 08 Jul 2009 , 3:17pm

The true doomers and gloomers are the hyped up frenzied bulls who sucked your average poor Joe Public investor into a greed frenzy of a mania of peaked out markets (houses, stocks, commodities, all assetts) that had the promises of reaching to the sky for ever and a day. ........now Poor Joe Public is nursing a lot of assett wounds. The true good guys have been the bears who have been waving great big red warning flags !

ITexpert77 08 Jul 2009 , 3:25pm

"All the green shooters have is hope, but unfortunately, hope doesn't make house prices rise or unemployment fall. Sorry."

Erm, the opposite, hope, good news and consumer confidence is almost all that matters.
The main reason we got in this recession is the media scaring people so much last year that they stopped spending and created what they were afraid of.
The main reason businesses fail and create unemployement is not the banking crisis but the loss of consumer confidence which makes people buy much less.

danni001 08 Jul 2009 , 3:32pm

Am I the only person on this planet who is sick to the back teeth of hearing about how much my house is worth?! I really don't care at the moment, as surprisingly I would quite like to live in my house for the foreseeable future!!! Having just spent 6 months on maternity leave and watching the news religiously, I feel nothing but anger for Sky News and it's ticker tape. 0.9% they say?! Really?! what exactly are they basing this on - we have no context - lending, borrowing, final sale prices, asking prices. Businesses are still going bust, with limitations imposed on them with cash restriction/borrowing. Highly geared companies are finding it difficult to raise cash and start ups are finding this to equally be a problem. 'Green shoots' another phrase that I don't want to hear at this present time. Show me the money and I'll be at bit more positive, it is still as if we are all in denial and teetering on the edge. Most attitudes that I have heard are 'oh well, they have all lost their jobs, but my house is still worth X'. Living in the densely populated South East does not grant instant immunity. Having said before that I have been on maternity leave and having seen what I have seen in the last 6 months, if you would like to guarantee your future - be a single mother who pops out children like peas and get a free house, council tax paid and an income. It seems that having no aspirations of bettering yourself is the way to ride out a recession. After all, Mr Brown wouldn't take away the money from the babies. I would like to point out that I am not one of these and am now well and truly back in the workforce.

supasap 08 Jul 2009 , 3:45pm

substructure or superstructure, body or mind, real or virtual............. I look at the news and read Fingered comments and think oh deary me we are all hard up and going to get poorer but then I go to work in traffic jams and get hounded by swanky cars all over the shop and realise nothing much has changed in the real world

Fingered 08 Jul 2009 , 3:51pm

.........in my view., you ain't seen nothin' yet Supasap. Just a matter of time.

PrinceoftheHi11s 08 Jul 2009 , 3:54pm

It is very difficult not to be a doom and gloomer in these times. We used to have a manufacturing base from where the green shoots of recovery could start. Now all we appear to have is people in London (rest of Britain does not exist)moving money about and making vast bonuses for doing it. Where is the reward for the workers of this once great country of ours?? What hope for all the skills being lost to industry?? What hope for the work ethic that is being lost?? What hope for industry when they wish to start producing and all the skills and experience have been lost??
Money is not a problem because the governments of the world just print more. This is the price of evolution. There are very few countries in the world who are not in debt.
The sooner we all start thinking and buying from Great Britain plc is the way forward and not by outsourcing to the third world. I know that they have their problems but we also have ours to sort out first. The sooner we re-nationalise our industries to stop the profits going out of the country the better. We can survive by being nationalistic. We still have the best brains in the world. It was us that built Concorde and the only reason it wasn't more successful is that the Americans could not get anywhere close and therefore refused entry to a lot of their airports. That is how much the world thinks about us!! Sod 'em we can do it our way!!

gordonbanks42 08 Jul 2009 , 4:21pm

@ danni001 - you write as though we would think the worse of you if you were not "back in the workforce". Since you now have (presumably) at least one child, I for one would prefer you to be elsewhere - developing the nation's human capital to its full potential for the future. Unless, of course, the child's father is at home doing that instead of you.

Not that I have any wish to make you feel guilty either way.

gordonbanks42 08 Jul 2009 , 4:37pm

@ PrinceoftheHi11s - having a manufacturing base guarantees nothing - look at the state Germany's in at the moment. Manufaturing = prosperity is an equation which works only when what much of what is being manufactured is considered essential by those buying it, and when a secure supply of the materials needed can be had at economic prices.

A lot of what is manufactured these days is sold to meet wants, not needs. Come the tough times, the buyers stop buying and the production lines stop rolling. Moreover the days are gone when we could send in a gunboat to force the hapless natives to part with their primary produce at knock-down prices. These days the hapless natives send the stuff to their own factories to provide work for their own people, or they flog the stuff at market prices. Quite right too.

I share your frustration at seeing money being handed to those people in financial services (for example) who do "work" that has negative, or at best no, value.

I also share your feeling that we still have the know-how to do good work and create genuine prosperity.

I also share your instinct that we should not be so quick to let foreign businesses and governments get the better of us through bullying (I'm thinking of the US here) or corporatist tricks (and now I'm thinking of France).

But please, let's think more openly about services. They can and do create value. They can be just as reliable as a source of value as manufacturing - the ability to carry on business is arguably less dependent on factors which look increasingly unreliable in the future (I'm thinking about energy and raw materials particularly). Services can generate high-quality jobs for large numbers of people. Just the sort of jobs that I would like to see more of in the kind of country I would like this country to become.

WillHoward 08 Jul 2009 , 5:55pm

This recession is different than any other methinks.
Back in the 80s technology was slow and people had to know how to manipulate algebra and other such stuff in order to get things done; there was value and time consuming work employed in getting things done. It may have taken, say, 30 men to design a ship, now 1 trained soul can do it in a week. Manufacturing design has much smaller demands upon number sof people than it ever did, as does manufacture and construction.

To create work, to create value in money is a more difficult issue this time, but not beyond those who walk the corridors of power.

As of China also, when those designated "third world countries" by the media of any of the "first world" or any other world, become first world what are we in for then? Will places like Britain, where it is now taboo to produce much at home because it is so expensive (a knock on effect of being first world), become viable places to produce within again? Will it be economically/financially viable to build ships again? If so, what cost to rebuild what we destroyed in terms of infrastructure, shipyards etc...?

It strikes me as funny to note that the world's output of steel continued increasing all the way through the present recession and continues to do so... somewhere has not stopped... and somewhere is likely doing more... choosing a holiday is a more interesting question; where best to have a spy on?

gordonbanks42 08 Jul 2009 , 8:03pm

@ WillHoward - there is a lot in what you say. Some time ago I bought a stone fireplace for a house I own. The stone was quarried in Turkey, shipped to China for working and then shipped to England as a completed fireplace for sale to yours truly.

When every economy in the world has first-world labour rates this kind of nonsense will stop. If truly rare skills are needed (rather than just cheap labour), then the stuff may still have to be moved to where the necessary people choose to live, otherwise things will tend to be made wherever in the supply chain minimises the cost of moving stuff about.

China has a command economy and stacks of cash. I fancy that they will show us a thing or two about how to do Keynesianism - my guess is that's what is keeping the steel mills rolling.

figurewizard 09 Jul 2009 , 8:18am

To avoid a collapse of the banking system Quantative Easing was introduced. It may have done the job but as economic policy goes it was a policy of despair.

The value of a ten pound note is not backed by gold or anything else to which a value can be attached. It actually represents no more than its share of the economy. If you print more ten pound notes when the economy is either static or falling you eventually reduce its purchasing power and inflation is the result.

As for house prices the facts are stark but simple. Average income in the UK is £25,000 while the average house price is around £150,000; a ratio of 7-1. The historical average is 4-1. As interest rates recover this imbalance will inevitably start a new correction.

Also given that from 2001 to 2007 consumer and mortgage debt doubled as net disposable income rose by only 29%, where's the cash for a genuine recovery going to come from? The City is on its knees and our manufacturing industries are shot to pieces so the alternative of export led growth is a long way off.



supasap 09 Jul 2009 , 11:18am

OK Fingered just what can we expect to see in the future, what will change in the real world of jobs and income and wealth.... just exactly what is going to get worse and when....

Fingered 09 Jul 2009 , 6:53pm
Fingered 09 Jul 2009 , 6:58pm

As I said, you ain't nothing yet. Others have a different view. In my opinion, I suspect you will not see it for what it is for quite a while, probably though only after the bottom has happened.

Relysis 10 Jul 2009 , 9:35am

The Areas For My Money:

Weapons [Afghan & Internal Security Elsewhere - China & Afghan Death Tolls For Instance This week]
North Korea & Iran are still simmering remember.

Green Energy Generation and Other Areas of Green Needs. Still TALKING OF Global Warming.[It won't go away.]

Medical - We continue to AGE, Old Un's have what Money is yet still about.]

Banks - Bankers CONTINUE to 'Outwit' Politicos, Witness recent Bonus Deals. Mervyn Threadneedle & Gordon 'Disagree'[Next Year Gordon to Lords /City Directorships after HIS election 'Wipeout' that makes Michael Foot at the Cenotaph look fashionable.

Loose Cannon? - Oil Prices.

Much More Civil Unrest Globally, Some maybe nearer to home, AntiTerror Laws can become 'AntiProtest' laws very quickly. The use of legislation designed for post 7/7 by Police to monitor the most law abiding [Cameras etc] will reach frightening levels soon [Whoever is in power.] 1984 will be arriving about thirty years after it was expected, but it will arrive here. Those in Power will NOT allow a repeat of recent Telegraph revealations.

In an old interview [pre recession] with The Times, one Mervyn King said, that one of his main challenges would be to "switch resources from private consumption to public consumption." He added that households will need to accept that "part of the output they are producing is going to finance public expenditure and to reduce the trade deficit, rather than going to household consumption."

I suggest that remains so, EXCEPT it now goes on debt interest, NOT development.

Stay seated & strapped in till the aircraft has stopped.

supasap 10 Jul 2009 , 10:08am

Fingered, my you are sticking your neck about though......."see it for what it is for quite a while"...... I mean there is no need to be so specific in your forecasting in terms of what it is and when it will happen ..... very brave of you

Fingered 10 Jul 2009 , 11:32am

:-) Article no longer worthy of comment.

supasap 10 Jul 2009 , 12:33pm

as with other article, the request for specifics is not generating a response...... but you have us all quaking with your "aint seen nothing yet" comment. Didn't realise you were into Bachman Turner Overdrive in addition to Floyd

bimber 10 Jul 2009 , 5:04pm

As with other article, don't assume that the recession is something you can ignore just because some people will not notice the effect it has on them.


"there is no need to be so specific in your forecasting in terms of what it is and when it will happen"

True. Everyone will be affected differently so nobody can be specific and only a fool would demand it. Finally you're making decent observations.

supasap 10 Jul 2009 , 10:12pm

Can't believe you did not detect the sarcasm. It was a comment to Fingered and it was referring to the lack of specificity of what will happen and when. Facepalm.

tarmacmonkey 13 Jul 2009 , 12:55am

The other area of huge financial commitment that the "prudent" labour government has saddled us with is the blessed public private partnership way of financing spending on infrastructure. I am no economist but I tend to believe the analysis that I read in Private eye on this one.

Some of the statistics about the apparent cost of building, say a new hospital are simply eye watering. The accountants who work for the construction companies run rings around the civil servants when they are negotiating these deals. The polititians just point to the achievement of producing the new road or bridge or whatever. They don't need to worry about he future cost of servicing the debt as they will have retired on thier grossly extravagant pensions supplemented by the fat salaries they get for their 2 day cosultancy job in he city. My son who will have just managed to pay off his student loan will have to pick up the tab. (perhaps someone who understands the numbers better than I will demonstrate that this is chicken feed by comparison to the billions we are pumping into the deflated balloon, I am ready to be persuaded)

Some of the positive comments on this article are quite right though, we could all take a 50% pay cut and still be a hundred times better off than most of the world's population.

figurewizard 13 Jul 2009 , 5:01pm

Good point tarmacmonkey. PFI and the cost of servicing its debt still doesn't figure in the numbers being bandied about for public expenditure. The reason is that this devious and untrustworthy government does not allow us to know exactly what those numbers are despite the fact that we are the ones who are expected to come up with the cash.

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